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Intro/Outro (00:00:01):
Welcome to Flow Stars candid conversations between Dr. Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of Flow Cytometry brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bitesize Bio.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:12):
Today on Flow Stars. I'm joined by Alice Givan, the author of Flow Cytometry, first principles, and we'll discuss the funding for problems she's had throughout her career.

Alice Givan (00:00:23):
Since there really were no, um, full-time jobs available for me at, at Newcastle that I was in a bad position

Peter O'Toole (00:00:34):
Working for the Open University.

Alice Givan (00:00:37):
That was terrific, cuz these were people who they really wanted to. They were, they were there cuz they really wanted to be there.

(00:00:45):
Her unique, diverse skills sets.

(00:00:48):
So I learned to sharpen axes and like I learned to hang on ax, um, head onto a handle and,

Peter O'Toole (00:00:57):
And why every flow lab needs a microscope.

Alice Givan (00:01:00):
I can't tell you how many people have brought cells to a cytometer, run them through like let's say a sorter or not, and then complained about the results and blame the operator or the sorter.

Peter O'Toole (00:01:13):
Oh, in this episode of Flow Stars. Hi I'm Peter O'Toole from University of York, and today I'm joined by Alice Givan on this episode of Flow Stars. Alice, how are you?

Alice Givan (00:01:29):
I'm just fine.

Peter O'Toole (00:01:30):
Alice, thank you so much for accepting the invitation to talk today. I've heard a huge amount about you, but actually I don't think I've ever personally met you. Uh, which is amazing. Cause I think, well, our paths probably haven't crossed, but you are. Where were you living at the moment

Alice Givan (00:01:49):
At the moment I'm living in Brooklyn, New York. And I only been here for about, well, that's an interesting question. I've been here for about three years, but I was born here.

Peter O'Toole (00:02:02):
So you you've gone full cycle all the way around. Yeah.

Alice Givan (00:02:06):
And I don't know if I'm finished or not. Who knows what the future has in store, but I'm, I'm retired at the moment. So maybe I'm finished. I use the word finish in quotation marks.

Peter O'Toole (00:02:21):
So I also know that thinking of New York, old York, York, UK, where I'm from actually you are fairly local to here for some years.

Alice Givan (00:02:32):
Not I'm trying to think how long, maybe only eight months, but it was when, um, do you see in the background? Oh, here I do.

Peter O'Toole (00:02:46):
Yes.

Alice Givan (00:02:47):
Howden Yorkshire, where, I dunno how to, how to, so my husband and I worked in a lab in the department of biology at York university when York university was only about two years old.

Peter O'Toole (00:03:08):
Oh wow. So sixties late sixties,

Alice Givan (00:03:11):
69. And um, that was, we had a terrific time and point. I'm pointing to that grass rubbing cuz while working in the lab and we did work. I mean we were doing science. We also were typical American tourists and we went trotting around doing grass rubbings in old English. Churchyards not churchyard churches.

Peter O'Toole (00:03:39):
Yeah.

Alice Givan (00:03:40):
But I mean, we were better than the typical American tourists who, who just writes often buys grass rubbings on the internet. So we, I mean, we, we had a really great time. Um, yeah, but I think it was eight months, but I probably, um, we didn't overlap with anybody who you would've known cuz it was a long time ago. Oh

Peter O'Toole (00:04:03):
I, I, I guess the oldest that I, people who left York now that were old stalwarts would have been the likes of Henry Leese. But I think he was after that and John Curry and

Speaker 3 (00:04:13):
John Curry, I think maybe was there. We worked in Rachel Leech's lab, but I know she's died, but she was one of the sort of founding, uh, lecturers there. Yes.

Peter O'Toole (00:04:26):
And actually Jo, Jo Marrison, uh, was a technician under Rachel for some years and she's now working for myself. Uh, so actually, so it was a very connection to Rachel, but I never met Rachel.

Alice Givan (00:04:37):
Um, anyway, we, we had a wonderful time. We, you know, we just enjoyed being there. And then as maybe you don't know, we went back to the states and then my husband got a job in Newcastle and we lived in Newcastle for 20 years. Did you know that?

Peter O'Toole (00:05:02):
I, I, I, I didn't know it was 20 years, but uh, I knew you were in Newcastle. Uh, so I've got some close friends, uh, Alison Bell and Ian Brotherick who obviously, you know, fairly well for your time Newcastle. So why did you come back to the UK?

Alice Givan (00:05:18):
Uh, short answer is my husband was offered a good job there. So I mean, we, we went to the UK to be, to work for that short term because why not? It was just a short term job and it was fun. And that was kind of interesting thing to do. And then we went back to the states for, so both my husband and I were biologists and we, we met as graduate students. So we went back to California and then we were looking for jobs, but my husband was offered this job as a lecturer in Newcastle. And I guess he was just looking for jobs anywhere. And I was a bit, um, I don't know whether I was looking. I mean, I should have been looking for jobs, but he got this offer. Yeah. And it was a lectureship. So that was a long term. Good job. Yeah. And we were not averse to work to living in Britain. We had that eight months and also it was a time of, I don't know whether it was a time of the Vietnam war stuff. So we weren't exactly protesting life in, in the states, but we were quite happy to be living in Britain. Yep. Off we went to Newcastle.

Peter O'Toole (00:07:01):
Wow.

Alice Givan (00:07:02):
And we've lived there for 20 years and both our kids were born there.

Peter O'Toole (00:07:09):
So how old are your children now?

Alice Givan (00:07:12):
47 and 49. And they're dual nationals

Peter O'Toole (00:07:17):
And scientists as well?

Alice Givan (00:07:19):
No, they're both academics, but not at all scientists. Ones a musicologist. And the other is, I don't know how you describe her. She's political. She's interested in, uh, labor relations.

Peter O'Toole (00:07:34):
Okay.

Alice Givan (00:07:36):
So I dunno, not scientists at all.

Peter O'Toole (00:07:39):
So what was, So going back to yourself, what was your first degree in

Alice Givan (00:07:45):
Biology

Peter O'Toole (00:07:45):
And why the passion for biology at that age? It's a good question.

Alice Givan (00:07:55):
Yeah. I, so I grew up in a family, so my parents were children of immigrants. My father now I'm going back. My father was the first person in his family who ever went to University, had any education. My mother had no education. She left school without left, um, school. I'm trying to get the English and the American terminology. So she left high school. She didn't, she finished school when she was left without a high school education.

Peter O'Toole (00:08:46):
Yeah. So 14, 15.

Alice Givan (00:08:49):
Yeah. Well she left, I guess at 16 and dropped out and got a secretarial degree. So she didn't have any education. She was pretty much the smartest person I ever met, but you know what I'm talking about. But my father, when he went to University, he got a degree in engineering, but then became a high school teacher in the state schools. So where I'm going to is that I never met a biologist and never met a scientist, but I somehow from a very young age, always wanted to be a biologist, but I never met one. And never, I even remember asking some, I, I remember saying I wanted to be a biologist or a biochemist, but not knowing what the difference was or what they were, but I just always wanted to be one. And, and I, I can't tell you why mean I used to, I used to go to, um, like, I mean with my family, there's a, a really good natural history museum in New York. And I used to, you know, we used to look at the, the dinosaur skeletons and things and I used to like that, but that's not being a scientist. I mean, I never knew a sci. I never knew anyone who was a scientist, but there I was, I went off to college and I knew I wanted to major in biology. And I, I, I don't know why. And then on the first day of college I saw a scientist that was my, my first scientist. And I ended up doing a project in his lab as a, you know, an undergraduate research project. You know, what, what I mean by a research project.

Peter O'Toole (00:10:56):
So how did you get into Flow Cytometry? Cause you must have been there at, you know, right at the very early stages of Flow Cytometry.

Alice Givan (00:11:04):
Well, okay. So I did, I, I did an advanced degree on, so all I knew when I went to do an advanced degree was that I was interested in, I didn't wanna work on a chemicals and I didn't wanna work on higher. I didn't wanna be a E ecologist. Let's just call it. I wanted to work on cell cell biology or something, cell biochemistry or something like that. And I did my PhD on, um, well I can you, what it was on it wasn't because I was interested in that subject, but I was interested in that level of biology and it was on photosynthesis and a green, a UN green, a okay. And then I worked on that for a while. And when we went to England, I, or through the help of the head of the department got a grant. So I could work on that. And here's where I had problems. I worked at Newcastle on that grant and then I worked, part-time when my kids were little and then the grant ran out and it wasn't renewed. And then I worked on someone else's lab on something else, but I was working. And then I found out, although I hadn't known this, that Newcastle University had a rule that said you could not be employed at Newcastle University on soft money for more than a total of six years. And that meant that if I got my own grant or on anybody else's grant or anything like that, I could of not be employed at Newcastle University. So I was stuck because Newcastle isn't that big a place. And I, so really I really, since there really were no, um, full-time to jobs available for me at, at Newcastle that I was in a bad position. So I really floundered around and I was not happy. And I did part little part-time teaching at the poly. And I did work for the Open University, which I loved. I mean, I really liked that, but that wasn't being a scientist. Um, and I taught at the, my kids primary school. I mean, I just went in and I showed the little kids at school, how to disect a cows eye. And they thought that was suitably yucky. And you know, I mean, I like, I like doing that, but, and then one day I saw him a I'm getting to the point. I know I talk, I talk a lot. No, it's good. One day I saw an ad in a or somewhere. I became aware that there was a job being advertised at Newcastle University Medical School. And the job was financed, not through the University, but through the health service. And that meant it. Technically I was eligible for it because it was not financed for the university. So I applied for it. Um, although there was one problem with the job, the job was to operate a Flow Cytometer. And I literally never heard of a flow cytometer. I, I really, I had never, this was in 1985 and really, I had never heard of a Flow Cytometer,

Peter O'Toole (00:15:22):
But they were quite new back in 85. So

Alice Givan (00:15:24):
That's okay. So maybe that's an excuse, but nevertheless, I really wasn't the only good thing the job was, I was eligible for it because it was paid through the health service, not through the university, but I had not ever heard for it. And this job was somebody to operate a flow cytometer, but what the hell applied for the job? And I got the job, I guess, because either no nobody else had applied for it or nobody else had ever heard of a flow cytometer. How do I know? So I got this job and it was in the department of surgery. So let me tell you that was a bit of a culture shock because here I was coming from very pure science departments and I was faced with a bunch of surgeons, but, um, I actually thrived in this job. First of all, um, I really fell in love with flow cytometers. They, they it's terrific.

Peter O'Toole (00:16:30):
What was the first, what was the flow cytometer then that you were using then?

Alice Givan (00:16:35):
So it was a Beckton Dickinson FACS 420. It, um, I don't know it, uh, I could describe it. It, so first of all, it, it,

Peter O'Toole (00:16:49):
I, I don't have a, no, I have a picture. There you go.

Alice Givan (00:16:53):
Okay, there you go. I have a feeling this picture is reversed, but it doesn't matter. Um, it, what you don't see is in one corner of this room, there was a huge tank that was, um, like six feet tall and six, or I don't know, huge that was full of, because somehow the argon the, the single argon iron laser was water. Well, water cooled, but it, somehow it wasn't hooked up to the house supply. It was hooked up to its own water tank. And that tank, once Don, do I tell you it's from a leak and we were ankle deep in water, but, okay. So it had this argon eye laser, and it had Ford and side scatter. And it had just before I arrived, it, it had been upgraded to wait for it, two fluorescence parameters. And that was high technology in those days. So we could do wait for it, not just fluorescence , but also algorithms simultaneously. And that was hot stuff in those days. But the good thing about it is that from learning flow cytometry, it was so you can't, I'm trying to point to you can't see that I'm pointing to my screen. It was all laid out there. So right behind this bench that I'm working on, you could see everything. Yeah, you're pointing, you could see the laser and you, you had to be able to a tune the laser, but you could see all the photo, all, all four, the photo multiplier tubes, or whatever they were, and you could see everything hooked up the way it was. And it was really good for learning how to, what was what, and, um, I think it was a good way to learn flow cytometry um, and I, they don't exist anymore like that. You know, now they're even, even the advanced flow cytometers are all hidden away in a black box. Although you do. I mean, I have my doubts about people using black box flow. Cytometers I mean, I know people, I know that good flow cytometrists are good, but I, I have my doubts about the people who just push a button and put their cells on and then write down a number at the end.

Peter O'Toole (00:19:34):
I've gotta ask, you said, did you say it's sprang the leak at some point you argon laser

Alice Givan (00:19:38):
The the no. The water supply, the cooling supply, yeah. From the leak. And there was water gushing out, cuz it was under, I mean, it was a big tank and it was under a certain amount of pressure and there was water flowing all over the lab and

Peter O'Toole (00:19:51):
We, we had a, oh, what was it? An old coherent enterprise laser.

Alice Givan (00:19:59):
Oh yeah

Peter O'Toole (00:19:59):
Yeah. And that was on the building's chilled water supply and the, yeah, that, that pipe came out once. Unfortunately the power of the water, the hose, it was connecting, it just went straight downwards. It's just really pipe going downwards. But oh my goodness. The panic is the Moflow was getting sprayed and

Alice Givan (00:20:17):
Well, I mean, there is a certain amount of high voltage around at the same time, but the trouble, see, at least with the system that we had, that was a tank of water. So there's a limited amount of water. Whereas if it's hooked up to the building water supply, I suppose the amount of water is out limit really

Peter O'Toole (00:20:34):
Closed tank, but it's a very big closed tank and the power, the force, the pressure, uh, yeah. Leaks in labs. Always good fun. So, so that actually you must have known Brian Shenton,

Alice Givan (00:20:50):
Well, that, that was the lab that his lab was the one that I, that he hired me then.

Peter O'Toole (00:20:56):
So he hired you.

Alice Givan (00:20:57):
Yep.

Peter O'Toole (00:20:58):
So Brian, she is to blame for you. Then

Alice Givan (00:21:03):
You might say that. So, so the, the purpose of the, of that fo cytometer was, well, it was in the department of surgery and it was bought by a surgeon, I will say because he had the idea that there had been some literature published that these might flow cytometer might be useful to, or a flow cytometric assay might be useful to predict rejection of transplants. And this department, this surgery department was doing, uh, kidney transplants at that time. So that was why it was, um, bought for the surgery department. And that was why I ended up, uh, working with some surgeons who were messing around with blood samples from kidney recipients.

Peter O'Toole (00:22:01):
Do you say 20 years at Newcastle?

Alice Givan (00:22:05):
Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:22:06):
That's so you must have seen quite a few iterations of different cytometers even when you were at Newcastle and where, where,

Alice Givan (00:22:13):
Well, I wasn't, I only worked with flow cytometer in Newcastle for five years. The first bit of that time, I, I worked with, um, my project and then I was unemployed for long or semi employed. And then the flow cytometer was on the last five years and then we moved back and then I worked in a, at Dartmouth in, in the United States.

Peter O'Toole (00:22:40):
So when did you, when did you leave the UK? What year was that

Speaker 3 (00:22:44):

Alice Givan (00:22:46):
So did you actually work with Alison Bell and Ian Brothwick?

(00:22:50):
She both those two, Alison Bell and Ian Brothwick worked in, uh, Brian Shenton's lab, if you will, which was in the department of surgery and Allison was, she started out as a sort of 15 year old, uh, school leaver doing her, um, HNC or what was the one before an HMC kind of exams there. And Ian was a, well, he had a PhD and was working as a, um, I can't, I don't remember what his title was, but worked in, in Brian in that lab as well.

Peter O'Toole (00:23:31):
I'm just trying to work actually, if that was 91 and I was told, and I was still an undergrad at that point or just starting my undergrad and Ian had done his PhD. I've got, when I see Ian I've now got a good idea of how old he is. I'm gonna have a good laugh at his expense when I see him next,

Alice Givan (00:23:48):
Ian, I, I really like, I like working with Ian. He was, um, he kept the lab, um, in good humor if, if you will.

Peter O'Toole (00:23:59):
Yeah. And I, so I, I met him when I was in Essex bizarrely, uh, and yeah, I, Ian was just so patient and actually when I was alone, the Moflow, he helped teach me how to use the Moflow. And he was so patient, uh, and open that actually my respect for Ian is huge. So, uh,

Alice Givan (00:24:16):
Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel that way as well. And, and also Alison, in that she, she had a real persistent, hardworking streak and she's done really well. Let me put it that way. I, I, I really want

Peter O'Toole (00:24:40):
Picture from when you are in the UK, it looks very like UK

Alice Givan (00:24:45):
That's a picture of our dog taking me for or a walk. Um, and I can't remember exactly where that was, but, but it was so we didn't have that dog until we moved to Newcastle. So it was, that must have been 1985 or six or something like that. And I can't remember exactly where it was.

Peter O'Toole (00:25:15):
I, I, I, I just like the picture. It's very, very typically old English.

Alice Givan (00:25:20):
It wouldn't be the United States anywhere at

Peter O'Toole (00:25:22):
All. No, no. With the stone walls and everything else. And you send this picture as well, which

Alice Givan (00:25:27):
I think I, I, I, I, I picked out things. That's my glamour. You

Peter O'Toole (00:25:34):
Loaded tool. This is a tool shed. I think

Alice Givan (00:25:36):
That was my first job. Well, it wasn't. I used to work for my aunt who owned a little children's apparel shop in the neighborhood, and then I got paid 10 cents a day. But so I worked there, there was a summer camp in the states for children overnight for children. And they, the children at the camp did, it was a really great place that, that I attended as well. And it was very progressive in that it was to things like organic. This was a long time ago before these things were popular and into organic gardening and forestry and things like that. And the kids did work projects of all sorts and they needed tools and things to do these work projects. And I, the summer before I started university, I had a, I got a job at this camp as well. I, this, this wasn't because I was a feminist, but I was, I had a job as the tool room, boy. Well, I was the first female to hold this job as the tool room boy, although I didn't think of it as a, as a, a, a banner for feminism at that time. But my job was to keep the tools organized for, for these projects. And the projects were gardening and forestry and carpentry projects that the kids did, but it was not only did I have to keep the tools organized, but I had to learn what they were cause they were all different kinds of saws and all, but I also had to kind of maintain them. So I learned to sharpen axes and I, I learned to hang on ax, um, head onto a head handle and all that kind of stuff. And I mean, I learned how to use a hammer properly. Like you, don't kind of use your wrist, you all that kinda stuff. And I really enjoyed it and it was a great bunch of people as well. So whether or not it was a, a kind of blow for feminism and all that. I don't know, but, but it was, um, I, I, I'm not sure whether it was a, a, a kind of first step into an interest in kind of messing around with tools and the inside of Flow Cytometers I don't know. Kinda interesting.

Peter O'Toole (00:28:22):
Well, the spanners would still be useful. I'm sure the hand drills may be not quite so the cytometrists

Alice Givan (00:28:27):
Hammer, sometimes you can take a hammer to a laser and get it working better. Do you think, I dunno

Peter O'Toole (00:28:35):
For a minute. And then it goes again. So if that was your first job, what happened after Newcastle you went back to, where did you go back to in the states?

Alice Givan (00:28:44):
So we went back, so my job was sort of running. I mean, with financial issues, it was, seemed like my job was not gonna go on forever. And my husband's, although he had a permanent job at the university, it seemed like he, if I don't know, it seemed like maybe it would be interesting to see what life was like in the states, whether we, I don't know, it was a good time to see again, whether we like life in the states or not, the kids were at an age when, um, our son was just finishing a levels and our daughter was just moving. Would've been moving into A levels. So we thought it was maybe a time to make a change if we wanted to. Although we were perfectly, we really liked living in Britain, actually. I mean, we, that we weren't dissatisfied with that, but to make a long story short, I'm not very good at making long story short. Um, uh, my husband was offered a good job in New Hampshire in the states, like the head of department and it was a good job. So it seemed like it might be good to take a chance on that, but I didn't have anything in the states, but I, it looked like my job was probably gonna run out in, um, in England as well. So, so we just up and left and went to New Hampshire in the states and I looked around for a job. And that's when I got this job. Well, I didn't exactly get a job at Dartmouth medical school in the states. When I say I didn't get a job, it was, they were looking to expand or had just started to expand a flow cytometry lab core lab at the medical school, not the clinical lab. Uh, it was the research core lab. And I first started out, I kind of worked literally by the hour. Well, we have a little bit of money and just hang around and see whether you can get start training people and that sort of thing. And I kind of worked into that and eventually stayed there for, I dunno, 20 years. And it expanded a a bit, it was never a huge lab, um, by such standards, but it, you know, it got bigger. I applied for money and we got some more instruments and it eventually got one confocal microscope, but it was not a, a huge enterprise.

Peter O'Toole (00:31:41):
And what about the cytometers? How many cytometers were you using there?

Alice Givan (00:31:44):
Then? I arrived there. They had two, they had a FACS star plus and had just got more of a bench topping one. I can't remember what it was. Might have been a FACS wasn't a FACS caliber FACS scan. I can't remember then gradually they got a FACS caliber and maybe a one other bench toy, one and confocal microscope. And I applied for a few of those grants to get those shared instruments. Yeah. But, um, I think the most, all, I think the maximum number were kind, I'm trying to picture the, the lab maybe they had, oh, then they got an aria sort. So they had two sort, but probably never used both. I mean, when they got the aria, they stopped using the FACS star essentially stopped using the FACS star. Cause the aria was easier teachings and more powerful. The only function that the FACS star plus had at that point was that it had a UV laser, but it, um, that wasn't so useful for so many purposes. Really.

Peter O'Toole (00:33:13):
So you said you had a confocal now you sent me a,

Alice Givan (00:33:17):
That's not, that's not a, okay. I'll tell you what that is.

Peter O'Toole (00:33:20):
What are they, but what confocal did you have?

Alice Givan (00:33:24):
It was a Bio-rad confocal

Peter O'Toole (00:33:28):
Radiance, or

Alice Givan (00:33:31):
Give me some names,

Peter O'Toole (00:33:33):
An MRC MRC, 600 MRC.

Alice Givan (00:33:36):
I think it was an MRC.

Peter O'Toole (00:33:38):
So you sent me this picture of a clone monas, I think which, which actually makes me look like I've got a bit like an alien haircut.

Alice Givan (00:33:45):
It's good. Actually.

(00:33:46):
He's gotta his name.

(00:33:48):
So, so you do know that's clone monas, do you?

Peter O'Toole (00:33:51):
Yes.

Alice Givan (00:33:52):
So the reason I sent it is that has had to do with my, um, PhD work and that's, and that picture is, I hope we're not, um, gonna get into copyright issues. I just got that off the internet and I didn't take that picture at all, but I think

Peter O'Toole (00:34:10):
What picture? I didn't see a picture.

Alice Givan (00:34:14):
I, I didn't at all. Um, it it's, that was one of the loves of my life. That's absolutely beautiful. I could sit on a micro, just a, a, a light, ordinary light microscope and watch those guys swimming around forever. I think they're absolutely gorgeous.

Peter O'Toole (00:34:30):
Ah, so one quick fire question, microscope or cytometer, what would you prefer?

Alice Givan (00:34:39):
Okay. You're getting into an issue there. I think every flow lab absolutely needs to have a microscope. Not, not even a conf focal. You have to have a, a, you have to look at your cells. I can't tell you how many people have brought cells to a cytometer, run them through, like, let's say a sorter or not, and then complained about the results and blamed the operator or the sorter. And it's because they brought clumped, whatever cells at the beginning, and they never bothered to look at them. Right?

Peter O'Toole (00:35:10):
Yeah. You should come to some of my lectures. I do a nice skit on a, the cytometer not working and let's go to the microscope and, and then let's see the controls and then controls

Alice Givan (00:35:21):
Complain the sort, not working because, or you, you sort something. And what comes out at the end is dead. So the cytometer killed the cells. Well, if the cells were dead or maybe this, what they get out at the end are, is garbage. Well, what they put in at the beginning was garbage to begin with, or it was just bacteria when they thought it was lymphocytes or,

Peter O'Toole (00:35:44):
Yeah. So we have all the latest advanced, like microscopes. The confocals are super red systems, but we actually have a basic fluorescence microscope right next to the sorter. It's just, what's going it on quick look. And if we need more, we can always go to one of the bigger ones. But yeah, just, but if you, if you could use anything, you have to choose, you rather have a flow cytometer or a microscope, what would you like to use?

Alice Givan (00:36:11):
Oh, well, I have to say a flow cytometer, cause it's so much fun. I mean, it's, it's wonderful. It's got everything it's got optic and it's fluidics and it's, I mean, it's it's and also, I guess I'm better at it. I mean, I never really was trained well enough on a microscope, so I don't, I've never felt truly comfortable on a micro. I mean, I don't really know how to use a microscope the way a really good microscopist is.

Peter O'Toole (00:36:42):
And arguably a cytometer is a high speed automated microscope that doesn't have to take images at.

Alice Givan (00:36:48):
Well, now, now some cytometer are combined with, um, my,

Peter O'Toole (00:36:57):
So you talked about the importance of training, uh, and maybe not being trained to a high degree for the advanced light microscopy, but obviously you've done a lot of training. You've been training a lot of people on cytometers. Uh, do you prefer training users or running samples or troubleshooting samples or optimizing experiments or

Alice Givan (00:37:21):
I, when I think about it, I think that sort of training or teaching has been a, a kind of thread through my whole, if you wanna call it a career. I mean, and I really like teaching

Peter O'Toole (00:37:42):
And teaching leaves a legacy, which is nice as well. And it brings, it's always nice seeing your own students coming through and taking over roles similar to our own, uh, as it goes through.

Alice Givan (00:37:54):
I mean, I love that teaching for the Open University I taught, um, if you will, cuz you're a Brit real working class students in pit village in Northumberland. And that was terrific cuz these were people who they really wanted to, they were, they were there cuz they really wanted to be there.

Peter O'Toole (00:38:26):
That was to the open university and that's actually worth actually those who are not in the UK, if you're not familiar with it's worth having a look at, cause it is a essentially open to right. It's an open university, uh, online materials, lots of course, uh, with a very good reputation as well. Yep.

Alice Givan (00:38:42):
Very really well thought out. And, and I met with that. I mean I did online marking of stuff, but also, um, in person once a week and then summer school, residential summer schools, uh, you week long and just terrific students. Um, I, I, I really enjoy and I also taught, well, I told you, I think I went in and did some just occasionally with the kids in, I, in my kids' primary school where I told you I, we dissected eyes and things. Oh yeah, those are my kids. Actually I was, we were collecting pond water samples so I could bring the, bring it in. So the, um, I think that was for when I brought pond water samples in for students to look under microscope. I mean you could look at pond water samples for hours. It's wonderful.

Peter O'Toole (00:39:43):
And, and I, I note, again, this is Britain because we've got a dry, dry stone wall.

Alice Givan (00:39:48):
There you go

Peter O'Toole (00:39:49):
Directly above it. Yeah. Very York, very Yorkshire as well.

Alice Givan (00:39:53):
So I, once I, I mean I'm a little nuts. I once took pond water sample and put it in a closed jam jar, tightly closed lid and put it on our window window sill. And it stood on that window sill for years closed lid and it would go sort of greenish and then it would sometimes go brownish and greenish and it never, never smelled, it never kind of rotted away. And it would just change colors with the amount of light of the seasons. It was terrific. I mean, I thought that was absolutely fascinating, but I mean, I told you I'm a little nuts, but

Peter O'Toole (00:40:33):
A whole whole different experiment. So think in a training and teaching who is being, you are in inspirations, Like is there any one specific moment that, that, that person's made a big difference to your own career? So who would that have been?

Alice Givan (00:40:55):
That's a good question. So I have,

Peter O'Toole (00:41:04):
I should have pre warned you about this question?

Alice Givan (00:41:10):
Well, I have sci, there are scientists who have been inspirations and they're more personal. Okay. So in my life I would say, I, I guess I would say I have grandparents who were immigrants who came to this country with nothing, no education, no money. And that kind of inspiration. And I have parents who were the children of immigrants and who were kind of trailblazers because they, were now I'm getting a little sentimental. They were from different ethnic backgrounds. My father was from Italian Catholic family and my mother was from a Polish Jewish family. And that wasn't very common in those days. Yep. So I'm kind of inspired by that, but leaving that aside, um, who my I have, Um, I have in mind a scientific inspiration right now because he recently died Howard Shapiro and he inspired me Not Somewhat. I mean, he was, well, he inspired me because when I first met a flow cytometer and didn't know what it was, his book was, uh, Wonderful, but also because he had a great kind of curiosity and he was very generous and I didn't, he wasn't somebody I knew really well. I, I knew him just a bit, but he just seemed to have a great curiosity and joy and love of science and uh, outrageous sense of humor. I will say and also a very kind person, I think.

Peter O'Toole (00:43:18):
And of course, a talent who music as well in Howard's case. And maybe that is the inspiration for this picture.

Alice Givan (00:43:27):
Well that's yeah. So I don't play the piano very well, but my husband

Peter O'Toole (00:43:32):
You're on the piano. This is your husband playing the,

Alice Givan (00:43:35):
My husband's a, a, a good, uh, an amateur, but exceedingly good Cellist. And my son who is not very old in this picture is he's, um, an academic musicologist. So he he's a good musician.

Peter O'Toole (00:43:55):
Okay. And he's playing the violin in this. So for those who are listening, uh, we've got Alice at the piano, uh hu. On the cello at this point and son playing a violin.

Alice Givan (00:44:07):
Yes. He's more, he, his specialty is jazz actually. I mean, he he's interested in, um, I don't know. It's hard to musicology jazz history, um, That sort of thing, something to like jazz.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:31):
So you sent me this picture as well, which I presume is you, you and your husband.

Alice Givan (00:44:35):
Yeah. There's somebody else in this picture, which you wouldn't know. I am five months pregnant.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:41):
When did you meet your husband

Alice Givan (00:44:43):
In graduate school?

Peter O'Toole (00:44:45):
Okay. So that that's early on. So you were fairly young.

Alice Givan (00:44:49):
Yeah. And we're still married. I sent you a picture of a cake.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:53):
Oh you did. There you go. So, so, so,

Alice Givan (00:44:59):
So that's our 50th anniversary cake. We're now up to, I think 55. We haven't had a 50 50 cake, but

Peter O'Toole (00:45:07):
So how old were you when you married?

Alice Givan (00:45:12):

Peter O'Toole (00:45:12):
Oh, see, I was 22 beat you there ? Yes. Wasn't I? Yes, yes, yes. I was. God, gosh. Shouldn't oh my goodness. My wife's gonna see this. And they killed me for double checking that, but that was

Alice Givan (00:45:27):
I'm about the, I think it's 55. Well, I mean such high number, you can't expect to keep track of such high numbers. I mean, that's high mathematics.

Peter O'Toole (00:45:39):
There. We are flow psychometrist and we live with numbers every day of the week. So thinking that beyond inspirations, it's really nice. Hear the personal ones actually. Cause I think it's the personal ones that actually probably draw I more than the ones that are in the scientific world, uh, to, to, to succeed. So some quick fire questions because you flitted around a lot UK or US.

Alice Givan (00:46:08):
I think the answer to that is that no place is perfect, but every place is quite wonderful. Really? I don't. No,

Peter O'Toole (00:46:17):
That's very politically, uh, careful PC.

Alice Givan (00:46:20):
No, it's true. It's not just, I'm not, it's not that I'm trying not to offend anybody. It's really true.

Peter O'Toole (00:46:27):
PC or Mac,

Alice Givan (00:46:28):
Mac

Peter O'Toole (00:46:29):
I'm McDonald's or burger king.

Alice Givan (00:46:34):
Oh, neither

Peter O'Toole (00:46:38):
Fair enough. If could live anywhere in the world, where would you choose to live? Is there anywhere that romantic think, gosh, that would be, that seems like it'd be such a lovely place to live. I would like to go and live in a house like this at that location.

Alice Givan (00:47:03):
That's that's difficult. I, I sent you a picture of a trip. We had to South Africa and Cape town is really beautiful, but so is the coast in Italy and so is,

Peter O'Toole (00:47:21):
That's not South Africa, is it?

Alice Givan (00:47:23):
No, that's the, oh, okay. So that's the cabin. See, I'm married really well. That's the cabin that my husband's grandfather built in the mountains in California.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:39):
Oh wow.

Alice Givan (00:47:41):
And it's got one room, but it does have plumbing. So that's nice,

Peter O'Toole (00:47:46):
But no wifi

Alice Givan (00:47:49):
It's iffy and that's good, but it doesn't have much wifi.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:54):
You still, so you still have this.

Alice Givan (00:47:57):
Yes. And it barely avoid getting burned down in wildfires last summer.

Peter O'Toole (00:48:03):
Wow.

Alice Givan (00:48:04):
And it probably is one of the most beautiful places on earth too. I, I can't answer the question about where I'd like to live. I, I just can't answer

Peter O'Toole (00:48:15):
That. Not a problem. And, and obviously,

Alice Givan (00:48:17):
Okay. So I have to plan

Peter O'Toole (00:48:19):
Out that,

Alice Givan (00:48:19):
That those, we went on this wonderful, wonderful trip. We really like traveling. And those, I have to explain that those lions are not dead because this, you could interpret this as being these guys with guns, shooting lions. And that's not the case. We meaning my husband and I were in a vehicle I'm pointing. This is ridiculous.

Peter O'Toole (00:48:45):
Yeah. So I said some sort of

Alice Givan (00:48:47):
Just like that, the other side, and these lions were sleeping because they were, the term is habituated to safari people. And that trip that we had to South Africa, I'd always wanted to go there, partly because seeing animals, these magnificent animals and the wild there's truly exciting. But also I'd always been fascinated by the, I mean, Nelson Mandela is one of my heroes. And I mean, we got to see the cell where he was imprisoned for 17 years and just what this country has made of itself and it's going through problems now. But I just, that trip was just a, a wonderful trip. So that was exciting wonderful trip.

Peter O'Toole (00:49:48):
So, right. So I guess if you are, uh, if you're on holiday, you're not someone who's going to sit on a beach all day. You prefer to go out and be active.

Alice Givan (00:49:56):
Uh, yes,

Peter O'Toole (00:49:58):
Definitely a sights here. You got any bad habits.

Alice Givan (00:50:05):
Oh, of course. Now I have to tell you what they are.

Peter O'Toole (00:50:10):
Oh yes.

Alice Givan (00:50:13):
Spending too much time on YouTube, my laptop instead of reading. Um,

Peter O'Toole (00:50:20):
What, what, what, what do you watch on YouTube? I, you can tell us,

Alice Givan (00:50:28):
Well, if I couldn't tell you, I wouldn't, I mean, you won't, you won't know, you won't know the things that I won't tell you, so that's no problem there. Um, um, I, I don't know. There's so it's really quite a wonderful resource. There's all sorts of music and, and all sorts of old films. And, um, and, and just one thing leads to another, but I won't tell you what, you can just look at all sorts of music and master classes. I love watching master classes of, of musicians training other musicians and things of that sort. I, I, I think it's quite wonderful.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:12):
So, so one of the quick fire questions, book or TV.

Alice Givan (00:51:19):
Oh, definitely. Book ex. I mean, I did go through a phase a long time ago when I was watching these so-called I guess you call 'em police procedurals, but I haven't done that. I watched a little bit of news on television, but I also like listen to news on the radio, but I like reading books

Peter O'Toole (00:51:39):
And, and YouTube has taken it over anyway for, for yourself. And what sort of book, what sort of book is it fictional? Not fictional. What sort of genre?

Alice Givan (00:51:49):
I used to say it was always fiction, but, but I've been reading nonfiction a little bit more now. Um, I guess both.

Peter O'Toole (00:52:01):
Okay. Uh, are you an early bird or night owl?

Alice Givan (00:52:12):
More a night owl, but maybe neither. I just like to sleep late and get to bed early, I guess.

Peter O'Toole (00:52:19):
Okay. Tea or coffee?

Alice Givan (00:52:27):
I think I go in phases. I think I should write a paper on whether I don't know if it's related to the phases of the moon or hormones, but lately it's been more coffee, but a while back I didn't drink much coffee at all. It was more tea. So I guess

Peter O'Toole (00:52:46):
Beer or wine.

Alice Givan (00:52:47):
Um, I, I was, I got prepared for this one actually depends on what I'm eating. If I'm eating hamburgers or Indian food, it's gotta be beer, but if I'm having something like Italian food definitely would be wine not beer

Peter O'Toole (00:53:05):
Red or white,

Alice Givan (00:53:10):
Red, unless it's a really hot summer day and

Peter O'Toole (00:53:14):
Yeah.

Alice Givan (00:53:14):
White

Peter O'Toole (00:53:15):
And, and, and so a beer with your burgers, but not for McDonald's or burger king, for sure. Proper burger.

Alice Givan (00:53:21):
Oh, proper burger. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:23):
So quite like McDonald's every now and then, uh, chocolate.

Alice Givan (00:53:28):
Well, I used to, but I mean, lately it's, they've got a little kind of greasy and thin. I, I used to think they were, that was, they were a good deal, you know, cheap and, and lot of meat, but I don't know about it lately.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:42):
Chocolate or cheese.

Alice Givan (00:53:46):
I can't have both?

Peter O'Toole (00:53:47):
Well, no, go on. You gotta make a choice both in front, but

Alice Givan (00:53:53):
The cheese is good. Good cheese. I go cheese.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:57):
Okay. And, uh, so what, what is your favorite food? You've had Italians burgers, cheese, chocolate. What is your favorite food? If you were to be taken out your favorite main course, what, what would you really like to have?

Alice Givan (00:54:16):
I, I like if it's a restaurant, I like it to be a sort of peasant, not, I don't like these kind of fancy places where they draw designs on your plate with sauce. You know what I mean?

Peter O'Toole (00:54:31):
You mean the regions of interest that they're drawing round. You don't like, you don't like this, the flow cytometry decorated plates.

Alice Givan (00:54:38):
But I like, I like Italian. I like Indian food, actually. I like Italian food. Okay. So

Peter O'Toole (00:54:46):
Indian food where's better UK or US.

Alice Givan (00:54:54):
I think it's better in the UK. At least when we were last there, it was getting to be, you know, really good in the UK.

Peter O'Toole (00:55:02):
Yeah, it did. It is definitely. And now I'm getting hungry. I shouldn't have asked that question. What's your least favorite food. If someone put, we went, oh, no. Do I really have to eat that? What would be your least favorite food? Well,

Alice Givan (00:55:15):
I used pretty much. I like any, except I once was invited my husband. I don't know if he was my husband at that time or not, but he was almost my husband. And we got invited to a meal at my former roommate's house and she was just married. Think she was trying to show off her culinary skills. So I'm telling you, I thought I could eat anything, but she served us brains and they, I, I don't know how you can cook. Maybe there are ways you can cook brains, but these brains were smallish and they just sat on a plate looking up at me and they were very gray. And to me, they looked like they just come out of formaldehyde on a, some bottle somewhere and I just couldn't eat them. And I tried to push them around on my plate, so nobody would notice, and I tuck them under a lettuce leaf and I hope nobody would notice. And I hope nobody would notice, but as we left that evening, we were going down the stairs. And the first thing Kurt, my husband said to me was, um, I guess I should take you out for a hamburger.

Peter O'Toole (00:56:56):
So he'd noticed anyway, well, I guess I like almost any kind of food except probably not brains. I,

(00:57:06):
I, I'm not sure I've ever had brains. I, I

Alice Givan (00:57:08):
Maybe if they were cooked nice and crispy and, and, um, you know, I, I don't know.

Peter O'Toole (00:57:13):
I'm sure it's probably been in some meat produce that I've had at some point, but I guess that'd just be ofal if I did try it. Oh, no bad joke at that point. What has, uh, the most difficult time in your career?

Alice Givan (00:57:28):
Oh, well, definitely that there was a period of five or more years when I was virtually unemployed and, and couldn't, you know, just, I mean, I made the decision that I didn't wanna live, have a long distance marriage. And, and didn't, I mean, I don't know if I could, even if I had wanted to have a long distance marriage, I don't know whether I could have got a good job or not, but I was essentially not working in a good job and I was not happy with that. So that was difficult.

Peter O'Toole (00:58:10):
So on the flip side of that, what about the most fun time? What was the highlight of your career?

Alice Givan (00:58:18):
So you're talking about career. So certainly a highlight of my life. I mean, I loved having kids and I loved being with them and all of that, a highlight of my career, I loved, oh, a bunch of stuff. I loved writing the book. I love working with flow cytometers in any way possible. And I love running flow courses as well. Those, those things,

Peter O'Toole (00:58:46):
All of which have also had big impacts as well. And time goes really fast and we are coming up to the hour, but you sent me this picture, which I love.

Alice Givan (00:58:59):
Oh my God. So that represents chaotic life on the Le on the left. So we had a house guest at the time. So I'm juggling house guests. Yeah. I'm I'm cooking. I don't remember I was cooking necessarily. Maybe I was making bread cause I love making bread, but I was a little bit of a compulsive freak. Why did I have to make bread behind your head is a chicken on the table. But also on the table is a three month old baby. And also we were, I think we used a kit, but I was making beer.

Peter O'Toole (00:59:47):
Oh. So, so cuz they look like Newcastle brown.

Alice Givan (00:59:51):
Well, that's what, I'm a little puzzle about. I wouldn't, but, but I, we did make beer, but why do they have those labels? I'm not sure, but maybe, maybe all this chaos had driven me to drink. I'm not sure, but also, I don't know whether you would, you wouldn't comment on it, but that was a phase in my life when I didn't have time to get my hair cut as well. So I'm just seeing this picture as kind of chaotic life, but it was good. It was a good life as well.

Peter O'Toole (01:00:25):
I, I was more amazed by the, the retro kitchen of the red worktops.

Alice Givan (01:00:29):
Oh, retro is a very complimentary term. I mean the stove was one that you had to flip something to get the gas. Yeah. Uh, lit. And also the cupboards went through many iterations where we kept scraping them off to try to figure out what to do because we didn't like this and we didn't like that. And then we scraped them to be natural and it was just with bad plywood, but we would paint them and then we didn't like the white and then we didn't like the natural and we didn't. So they were in a very, very good state affairs. You

Peter O'Toole (01:01:05):
And the huge pepper dispenser, which is,

Alice Givan (01:01:09):
Oh, so that monstrous, I think I bought in Italy. So that, so that's good. That represents something. And I don't know if the knives over on the left represent, uh, what I was gonna fling at somebody if I reach the of Self Control

Peter O'Toole (01:01:29):
That's brilliant. There's there's just one other question I have to ask. And this is a, actually, maybe we take this one offline. You said you had a story about Pocklington. I think

Alice Givan (01:01:37):
About what

Speaker 2 (01:01:39):
Pocklington in near York.

Peter O'Toole (01:01:41):
Oh, well my God.

Alice Givan (01:01:42):
And uh, and so this is a place local to where I lived now for those who are not familiar with York and Pocklington, I guess 10 miles down the road, but you said you had a Go on tell us, cuz it sounds entertaining.

(01:01:58):
Well, when we lived, when we worked at York university, we lived in, we had a, a staff flat in, um, Derwen college and there was a faculty member, I think who used to hang out in the senior common room there and we used to chat with him and he told us about someone who was ca he told us about the bull of Harling. This wasn't the bull, this wasn't the pub. Maybe there is a pub called the bull of Pocklington, but this was a person who was said to be the father of half the children in Pocklington. I have no idea, but I'm sure there was the gross exaggeration, but how gross? I dunno,

Peter O'Toole (01:03:05):
Pocklington for that again for those who dunno, he's actually quite a large town.

Alice Givan (01:03:09):
Oh. So would've been quite,

Peter O'Toole (01:03:18):
I like that. He wasn't referring to himself. Was he?

Alice Givan (01:03:21):
Um, well we won't go there right now.

Peter O'Toole (01:03:28):
Anyway, Alice, we, we have up to the hour and I just gone over, I think, thank you very much for agreeing to be with us, you know, it's great to have someone who was only momentarily at York, but has gone on to have such a big impact. I across the community and especially in Flow Cytometry, uh, from the very start through the surgeon, the clinical to the research, to the teaching, to the book. Alice, thank you so much for what you've given to cytometry. Uh, and it's been lovely to meet you.

Alice Givan (01:04:00):
Well, it's been lovely. It's I feel like we've crossed paths, uh, sort of 50 years apart or something like that, but it's been nice to meet you too.

Peter O'Toole (01:04:12):
Yeah. Just lucky you left. Otherwise you'd have had my job and I wouldn't have a career. So it's probably very fortunate. You went back to the US at that point and everyone who's watched or listened at it's worth watching, cuz like that is so brilliantly, retro, uh, it's worth having a look, but no matter what you're watching or listening on, please subscribe. And uh, I hope you've enjoyed this episode of the Flow Stars. Alice. Thank you very much.

Alice Givan (01:04:35):
Thank you, Pete and Flow Stars is perhaps a little bit to, um, complimentary term, but thank you.

Peter O'Toole (01:04:44):
Pleasure.