Anis Larbi (Beckman Coulter Life Sciences)
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations between doctor Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of flow cytometry brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite Size Bio.
Peter O'Toole:Hello, and welcome to Flow Stars. And today, I have Anis Labbe from Beckman Coulter Life Sciences who was an academic, and he shares how he picked up his English speaking skills to present at a networking event in Sicily. His views on whether postdocing is a job or a passion project, and finding his impact in industry. All this in today's episode. Hi. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York, and welcome to this episode of Flowstar. Today, I'm joined by Anis Lapi from actually Beckman Coulter to themselves. Anis, how are you today?
Anis Larbi:Very good. It's been a nice day, nice week. Winter is coming, enjoying it, and thanks for the invitation.
Peter O'Toole:It's a pleasure. And for the audience wondering, actually, I approached Kumtor to ask if they had someone we could talk to who'd flipped from an academic career to the dark side. I'm joking when I say the dark side, but we will talk about this in a bit. Because I think it's you know, when we were in academia, you all know this, Annis, there's only limited possibilities of where you can go. You know, it is like all careers. There's a pyramid. Yeah. And you're gonna get stuck at some point, and academia has some advantages and disadvantages. But it's quite brave, I feel, to jump across out of the world of act our cozy world of academia into a from an from an outside perspective, maybe a more ruthless world, a commercial corporate business. So let let's establish where you came from to start with, if that's okay.
Peter O'Toole:Where what was your what was your first degree in?
Anis Larbi:Actually, I did my undergrad in France in the city of Lyon where actually I grew up, and I'm from the city of Lyon with an undergrad in biological sciences. Okay? And this was some time back, twenty five years ago. And there was the opportunity actually to do, like, in to do some, like, internship post post degree. They had also the possibility to to do that abroad. So there was this professor in in the university. His her name is Marie. I always remember people that actually were quite important in driving some of my career. And she said, oh, maybe you should go to Canada because she has some family there. And she said the spirit for research there is very nice, very open. And then I find myself a couple of months after my degree in Canada for internship. And so this was in a research lab in the city of Sherbrooke in the lab of professor Thomas Phillip. You know, he's a scientist in working in the field of immunology, and my role was to put in practice what I have learned. You know? And I did this for nine months. It was
Peter O'Toole:Oh, a nine month internship.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. It was a it was a it's true. It's a long internship, but this is to kind of validate undergrad plus one. You know? It's like another degree.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Yeah.
Anis Larbi:International degree. It was long, actually. And and this is true. It's not easy because you are really into the lab work for nine months with no pause. Like, there was no school, you know, no university exams or so it was really work work work. And it went very well, actually. I really enjoyed it, and I had a lot of freedom. And this is an important world here that drives actually my career, is the freedom I had. Well, it was a mix of freedom and so when I reached there, the PI said, oh, thank you for coming to my lab for your internship. This was the first day I met him. I said, I'm sorry, but next week, I'm going for a sabbatical. So I didn't see him. I didn't see him for, like, couple of months. So I was a bit, you know, it was a bit worrying, but actually, it went pretty well. The people there locally, they were very nice. And so I did this internship. I learned a lot of things. And for me, it was fantastic to put into practice what I have learned from from the university. And the boss there was seeing that maybe there is something in me, so he wanted to invest on on on me on me, and he asked me to to join for a master degree, to stay in his lab and do a master degree to follow-up some of the research research because there was some nice result from my internship. And then I decided to stay, and then I did my master degree. This is the University of Sherbrooke.
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm.
Anis Larbi:Very good university, actually. Small city, but very nice university. Very good. And then, of course, I follow-up with my with my PhD there. PhD in immunology from the faculty working in the faculty of medicine, University of Sherbrooke. And very for me, it was enlightening. You know? I this guy so so Thomas, now he's a friend, professor Thomas Phillip, he he he enlightened me into the world of research. What is research? We know the really, like, noble part of it, you know, in terms of exchange, in terms of curiosity, in terms of openness, in terms of passion. Passion is very important. And this is why I stayed for the master and then for the PhD. It's a lot of because of him, cause I was in Canada far away from the family in a very cold place. It was not the best for me, actually, to be honest. But when I was in the lab, I can forget everything. I could forget everything and really, really enjoy that.
Peter O'Toole:So after that, you then went to do a postdoc, but that wasn't in Canada, was it? You flipped to Germany?
Anis Larbi:Yes. So after my my my PhD, I I went to Germany for a for a postdoc, and this was the lab of somebody, also Graham Graham Pavelek, that actually I met during my Canadian time. Thanks to to Thomas that really opened me to his network of scientists. And just to tell you his anecdotes, so the I was in master degree, the first year of my master. Thomas told me, do you speak English very well? And, you know, I came from France. And not not to blame the French educational system, but we're not the best in terms of speaking English. But I could I could manage, but it was not the best. But I asked him why you asked me this question. He said, no. It's just I have this meeting in Sicily and I've been invited and they asked me to bring somebody that could present a short, you know, short talk. Come on. I was so excited. I said, of course, I speak English so well. You know, sometimes you have to take the the the risk and the the the opportunity and and and and and the challenge. And this is how I went to this meeting. It was in Palermo, meeting with all these people that knew my boss, so he introduced me to all of the people. And then I started to know the community of scientists in which I was working. It was the field of biology of aging, so aging of the immune system in particular. And this is where I met this Graham Pavelek. He was organizing this event actually in Sicily. And then I met this guy, and several years later, I I ended up in his lab as a a postdoc.
Peter O'Toole:I think what's really good to hear there is the networking side, that actually you've taken the networking opportunities. The meeting in Sicily, you didn't say no to out of nerves or your English wasn't as good as you thought it should be. You just said yes, and you'd make it work. And all of that is from the networking from your supervisor who they know. You were obviously sociable, friendly, talkative with the with the visitors that he was having so that they would get to know you a bit. So whether you were conscious of that or not or whether that's just your personality, Would you say you were deliberately making good efforts around these people or just naturally gregarious?
Anis Larbi:I think it's also because when I left France to have this opportunity in Canada, I felt a bit of frustration in the and it has changed since, luckily, but the research ecosystem at that time was not very open, you know, in terms of when you are young and you're an undergrad or master. You know, the feeling I had at least was like you don't have the freedom to do this type of to have these opportunities to so when I went to to Canada and I had this opportunity, I really took any possible milligram of chains to communicate, exchange, do research, and, you know, it was for me a kind of a obligation because I left my comfort zone. I was in Europe, in France. I left this comfort zone. It was not just to take a plane and and and land in another comfort zone. So you have to take this challenge, and it's it's not easy because there is at least in the educational program I was in France, there was no such way to teach you how to communicate, how to develop your network. It's something you learn by yourself. Right? Maybe now this has changed, and I think it's great. But at that time, you know, it's not there's no how to do it, you have to do it by yourself. So you also have to have this I'm kind of shy by nature, and I had to change that. Now I'm not anymore.
Peter O'Toole:That's it. Actually, before we went live today, it was a lunchtime webinar or meeting that I did with MI talent, and the technician's commitment. And, actually, it was all about networking, being visible, how how to raise a profile. And it was interesting, but networking, and as you say, not saying no, saying yes to things was really important. For the people on there, they they we've all been out of our comfort zone saying yes to something. I I think I used to say yes out of ignorance, not realizing what I was saying yes to, and then just finding myself there, bunny in headlights, but going with it. Others, I think they thought, well, I need to take this opportunity, otherwise, it might not come around again. So I don't really want to do it, but I'll say yes. But then actually enjoyed it and found, you know, that impostor syndrome quickly goes away, I think. Although I think you always find yourself in situations where, again, you feel a bit like an impostor syndrome position.
Peter O'Toole:So how's your German?
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Not so good. I actually I never learned German at school, so I had absolutely no no knowledge at all about the German language. And it's another, you know, it's another risk and another challenge here.
Peter O'Toole:And how how long were you out there for?
Anis Larbi:I was there for a bit more than four years. Of course, I had the chance that the lab director was British actually, living in Germany. He married a German local German woman. So the people in the lab, they they they could speak English, and they speak English. So I feel at least I had some some safety zone there.
Peter O'Toole:And so oh, yeah. This is fantastic. So you've gone from France to Canada to Germany, but then I guess your big break was then moving over to the A Star in Singapore.
Anis Larbi:Yes. Yes. It
Peter O'Toole:This is well traveled at the moment. Okay? Canada, Germany, Singapore. Got so but what how why did you go to Singapore? It's an awesome place. A star is Oh, yeah. Place.
Anis Larbi:Yes. Yes. It's you know, it's it's it's life sometimes. It's it's opportunities you have to to identify. It's also changes. You have change. Sometimes that is a part of the the the deal. I was one year, I think, before being so I was contacted by by to tell you. But one year before that, I was thinking, you know, maybe I need another challenge. I don't know. We're talking with the family. Maybe Asia will be nice. So I love Indonesia. It was very nice. But Singapore was not in the picture at all. I had no no clue that Singapore was doing kind of research at that time. And I I I received an email one day, and I think it's probably because some of the things I was doing there in Germany. I was doing a lot of because as an immunologist, you do a lot of flow cytometry. So I was doing some flow. I'm doing I think in 02/2008, I was doing something like fourteen, fifteen, 17 color flow cytometry already. Okay? So what instrument was that on?
Peter O'Toole:Sorry? What instrument was that on?
Anis Larbi:This was highly modified LSR Okay? And we were doing that, and the probably they have heard about what we were doing because then they're being contacted. I received the email one day. Oh, we have identified you. We'd like you to join A Star. There was a new immunology institute to be to be built. This was 02/2009. And so then, again, I had to Google it. Singapore, what are they doing? Is it risky? Is it really serious? Because, you know, when you're alone or when you have a family, it's a bit different. You know? You got different considerations. So then we decided we invited me to go for a visit. So I was there. And, yeah, it's different culture, different people, different type of work. It was to build so to tell you, they asked me whether to join because they are building this big immunology institute, and they wanted to have several facilities, core core platforms. One was them, was flow cytometry, and they wanted me to build that. And once I build this, they wanted me then to they allow me to do my own research because this is something I was doing already. So that was the big change, big move for for us because, you know, it's interesting. I think the year before I moved, I I think I bought a house in in in Leon. This is where I'm living actually now. This is the house I bought.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, okay.
Anis Larbi:Because I thought after the postdoc, maybe we'll move back to France. You know? But no. So we we moved to 11,000 kilometer from there. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Alright. So this is interesting as well. So you've gone from, obviously, your master's to a PhD to a postdoc. You're doing your own research. You went to A Star. You you become your own lead academic itself as a PI, but you also headed a core facility. So you had you've got a multihatting, at that point. I'm sure many who listen to Flowstars will understand the importance of Flow core facilities. Which part of the job did you most enjoy? The leading a core facility and engaging with the technology and developing applications for users or your own research? What what did you prefer?
Anis Larbi:This is a tough one, but it's an interesting one. Yes. I I used to say I had two jobs because I was heading I I I built and helped build with the support of many people and the the the the freedom from the management to to develop what I think was to be to be to be developed. Here, to answer your question, I was able to develop my vision of what should be a core facility, which is very important because you develop, you think about, you have a vision, and you implement it, which is different from doing something that somebody else, you know, has designed. So this was very exciting.
Anis Larbi:To be honest, it's something which is because you see the fruits, you see the people coming, you see the people using, you see people being trained, you see the publications. I think I like also the research side. We were very successful in terms of my research, it's, you know, a lot of publications, good publications, a lot of collaborations, exciting work, clinical trials, really great also. But what I liked a lot is when my people from the Flow platform, so my operators that help the running of the platform, when they are were engaged in projects with users or PIs, and they will include them in the scientific papers because of the contributions, because what they bring. You know, it's where this I was especially proud, to be honest, because then it's them. You know? I used to tell them, put them in the paper. I don't need to be because I'm I'm not the one doing the work. I'm an enabler and they are doing it. I was very proud of this, to be honest, because it's not in every facility that you have this type of recognition. Right? And this is something I was very proud to be honest, and it gave me motivation. And, of course, the publication from the academic part, the research, but again, not for me, for the student and the postdoc because it was a relief for them. But, yeah, I say a little bit more maybe the in terms of the platform than the the academia.
Peter O'Toole:It just got me thinking within our own core facility, within the microscopy and the cytometry side of the the bigger core facility at York. I think every one of that team have been a coauthor on someone's publication in the last twelve months. That's all of I I I say some get more than others because they're, you know, more advanced in inputting more into the research. All of them, I think, have got at least one to their name. That sounds crazy. How, you know I think I think actually core facilities are getting better at that. People are better at recognizing the expertise where it's actually, you know, five, ten years ago, that wasn't so much the case.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. That's
Peter O'Toole:true. Doing well-to-do that.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Absolutely. And and I think it's you know, when you have a core facility, depending how it works, but people will tend to think, yeah, I pay for the facility, then this is the service. You know? And this is something I try to build differently. It's more the relationship and the collaboration.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. But but an academic so as a PI, you pay for your postdoc, but your postdoc, you still coauthored.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Expertise Absolutely. As bigger bulk of it. At that moment in time, you're using their expertise. I think the problem is a lot of core staff tend not to explain what they've just done is actually quite special, and they just make it look easy. Even though they probably just developed a new pipeline or optimized a new application that wasn't possible before and use that skill so it is developmental. It is impactful. But for the for the non user, just think, oh, but that's what you do. That was easy for you. And actually, no, it's not. It's that level of skill that we have to convey that. We have to communicate that.
Anis Larbi:That's true.
Peter O'Toole:So go on very quickly. Core or academic? Go on. Which one? You gotta pick one.
Anis Larbi:Core. Oh,
Peter O'Toole:okay. Well, it's a good choice. I I would I would agree wholeheartedly. So you beat you were at A Star Singapore, and then you've obviously switched to Betancourt at that point. And I I've had star I've had, postdocs come to my office and say, Pete, I'm looking to switch jobs out of academia, and I'm looking at working for a company. And, but people are saying to me, oh, really? You're going to the dark side. Now, I've always took that as humorous just some people say, yeah, I've never seen it as a dark side. But actually, I think people were actually genuinely saying to them, why would you want to do that? So a, did you meet that, I would say, academic snobbery at that point that it's that it's not equivalent or is good or is meaningful? Where would we be without the product and without the companies? We'd be nowhere. So, of course, it's vital. But did you meet any of your peers that said, oh, why would you want to do that?
Anis Larbi:Yes. Yes. It's I got this. I was recently in in in in Qatar to present on a in the symposium, scientific talk about, you know, bacteriology and circular economy and things like that. And in the end, somebody asked me because there's always the bio where you come from, etcetera. We saw some probably some publication and things like that. And one of the the question from the chair of the session was nothing to do with my talk. He asked me why did you left why you left academia and why you joined, you know, a company. You know? I was a I was a bit surprised to be honest, but I I got this very often. So just to answer, I got this very often.
Peter O'Toole:Did it you off? Did it offend you?
Anis Larbi:Sorry?
Peter O'Toole:Did it put you off going, and did it offend you that people were thinking like that?
Anis Larbi:No. No. I don't. For me, it's it's on the contrary, I like when people ask it because sometimes we have misconception about doing this transition and about what is working in the company is, which is different, obviously. There's not much education about, you know, how you could do this transition and and how it is working in a company, although it's different from company company to company.
Anis Larbi:When people ask me, I ask myself, okay. I was it do I have any regrets, or was it I'm still okay with that decision? And that that's the only thing. But, otherwise, no, I take it very nicely, and I think I know that many people would like to, and this is something maybe you know?
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm.
Anis Larbi:Many people would like to, but for them, it's a bit you know, it's as you said, it's the dark side. You know? But this guy seems to still be happy, so maybe he's not so bad. So that's why they ask.
Peter O'Toole:Do do you ever get people within industry because this I I know a few people who've moved back into academia. It's the same thing. I I'd love to know, actually. Maybe I should go and ask one. It's the same question asked of them. Why are you going back to the dark side with academia? I I wonder if it flips the other way as well.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. But I think you have probably have more people going from academia to to to industry in in from what I know Yeah. And and less on the other the other side the other way. But, yeah, it's it's a very different way of but if you are able to work in both and to do this transition, it means also, in my opinion, that you have the the skills to to do both probably. And then you may find I don't I don't know. Maybe in in couple of years, I'm going back to to academia. Who knows? You know?
Peter O'Toole:Why so why did you flip from academia into industry?
Anis Larbi:I think there are two reasons. It's as as as scientists, you know, we we we contribute to the society by advancing the knowledge, helping as much as we can, and eventually to translate some of this research into practical applications and utility to to in this context is health. And so when you think about it, you have a bit of in terms of your own, how can I say that, ethic, and this applies also on the industry side, is what am I doing? How am I contributing? Am I are my skills and what what I'm doing? Is it the best contribution to the society? Can I do better? You know? And as scientists, we always have to have this, you know, this criticism into what we are what we are doing. Not just the result of the Western blot, but higher level. What am I doing? How it's relevant? And it's also thanks to, you know, when I was in A Star, when you write grant, you write you are you are writing grant at that time, they don't just ask you how many paper you're gonna publish. They were asking you how it impacts the society, how it impacts health recommendation, how many spin off company you are able to to to to to to get out of it. So it's, you know, it's were trying to push us to the to the, you know, the impact of what you're doing. Okay? I'm not saying it's always good because, you know, we have enough in our plate as scientists to publish publishing alone is a is a is a piece is a is not a piece of cake. So but still it opened my mind into that. And then I thought, okay. Is my contribution the best in what I'm doing? We published a lot of work, nice publications, I think. We have had enough money to do my research, invited in conferences, so I was successful with it in a way, but still I felt that something was missing. This comes from when I was discussing with people, the companies coming to my lab and say, hey Alice, we have this new technology, we have this new application, and sometimes I felt that there's a gap also in the industry in the way they develop or they think about product and how this can be useful to scientists. And and I wanted to consider how can I be in the middle of that and help scientists get better solutions and scientists go faster to to their research research endeavor? And this is what I was thinking, know, and talking with people from the industry, so when I go to conferences visiting the booth, but talking to the people there, know what you're doing and how is it in the company, how you generate your product, I felt that probably there's also a gap in the industry in getting people that were doing this, that were in academia for so many times, and that how maybe they can help them be closer to the research community.
Peter O'Toole:So I I'm gonna take it back. So you're now in in the corporate world. But if I take you back to when you were really young, can you remember what the first job was that you wanted to do?
Anis Larbi:Yes. I wanted to work in a lab. I wanted the the white coat, the lab coat.
Peter O'Toole:Really?
Anis Larbi:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. But from the age of what? 10? Nine, 10?
Anis Larbi:Yes. Yes. Something like that. Absolutely. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:You didn't want to be a footballer, an astronaut?
Anis Larbi:No. No. No. No. I was really fascinated by the world of biology.
Peter O'Toole:And now you've swapped out your lab coat.
Anis Larbi:Yes. I still put the lab coats from time to time when I visit hospitals and stuff like that, but no pipetting anymore.
Peter O'Toole:So so what is your role at Beckman Coulter?
Anis Larbi:So and and it's it's important question here is when you move to to company, it's not it's it's not easy because you you are from and I will answer your question, but but you move from writing grants, hiring people, training people, getting papers, and getting visibility from the community, trying in the meantime to get development moving up in your career. Okay? And you are moving from a very different system, and you don't know how it works in the company. Okay? So what is important is to also land in a position to answer your question where you also feel comfortable. Moving from this academia role to something that is not aligned with what you can do and you feel comfortable, this is more than risky. Okay? And so that's why in moving to Beckman Coulter, actually, my my role is is called medical and scientific affairs. So I'm a senior manager in the in the company, and my role is I mean, we have different functions as medical and scientific affairs, but to make it in one sentence, they tap on our expertise and experience as scientists with years of experience in the lab, in the research, to help inside the company to of level the knowledge, the capacity, help the company maybe developing better products that are more aligned with what scientists do, do update in the research, in what is trending in the community, in scientific community, where the field is going, but also talking to still talking to scientists a lot, actually going to conferences and to talk to those scientists to to to understand what's what's evolving in the field.
Peter O'Toole:Just thinking about this. I I get all that experience that you have. They they that's what they're buying in for. They bring you over because you got all the expertise, the experience, you know what the customer wants because you you were the customer. But, obviously, over time, that's gonna wane because things change behind the scenes. Have you thought about going into a lab and shadowing for a couple of weeks or doing a couple of labs? One week in one lab, one week in another lab, just to get that vibe back and just to have your ear right on the ground of just the the the the ordinary user, rather people at conferences who are gonna be a flea in your ear because they're gonna have agendas to push. But, actually, just being around and just getting a feel for how things are moving today, where the different technologies are emerging, how they're overlapping, have you thought about doing that?
Anis Larbi:Actually, it's an interesting, it's an interesting idea. And, no, to answer your question, I do read a lot, though. I do read a lot, and I am still a lot in contact with the research community. I have a kind of a big network, so I when I need information. But it's true. It's not the same when you are in the lab. I fully I fully agree, and it's not something you can you know, that's also some of the things as a as a when you are a PI or a postdoc, you can travel, go to a different lab, different city or country, go for, like, one week, two weeks, three weeks, one month to learn a technique or get some data. It's not something we do we do so easily.
Peter O'Toole:Would say I guess it's not you're you're not at that moment in this is more training, isn't it? It's almost like top up training.
Anis Larbi:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And rather than that because you're not gonna get sales out of it. That's not your purpose of being there. You're not gonna find your next market lead. But
Anis Larbi:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:I found an excuse to get you to York.
Anis Larbi:Thank you for the invitation, and I accept your invitation.
Peter O'Toole:There you go. You'll be more than welcome. As you well know, you'll be more than welcome. I asked you what you wanted to be when you attend. If you could do any job in the world for a day or a week, just to sample what what it'd be like to be in that type of job, what job would you go for?
Anis Larbi:A job where you really make impact. And it's it's not really a job, but it's, you know, when you see sometimes what's happening in a in in in in some parts of the world at the at the moment and probably since decades is where you have a impacting direct impact in lives. You know? And and this is aligned with why also I moved from from academia is how you have a better impact. So I think it can be any type of job as long as you see the impact in the life of the the individual. Yeah. It can be a surgeon. It can be a policeman. It can be a fireman probably working in in in NGOs, supporting these these people, things like that. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. What was what was your first cytometer?
Anis Larbi:This was I remember it was in 02/2001, if I'm not mistaken. And the the the the the so Thomas, at that time, I was starting my master, I think. I say, I have a gift for you. I said, what is this? And really, it was like, it's coming today, and it was a caliber at that time.
Peter O'Toole:That was the same. My first was a caliber.
Anis Larbi:And but, you know, the difference is, like, you know, you say, oh, this is the gift for you. This is the guide how to use it.
Peter O'Toole:Bye bye. But you also I remember you got a DVD to show you how to operate it as well. Do you remember the DVD or the CD or whatever 02/2001? And you could watch that. And it was it was actually one of the best tutorials I think I've seen.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. No. No. It was it was a very good experience, actually, and and it was the it was my first, really, encounter with one to one encounter with phocytometerium.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So some some quick fire questions. PC or Mac?
Anis Larbi:Mac.
Peter O'Toole:God, these are quick fire questions. How long was that taking you, Mac? McDonald's or Burger
Anis Larbi:King? Burger King.
Peter O'Toole:Burger King. Okay. Are you an early bird or a night owl?
Anis Larbi:Night.
Peter O'Toole:Night. Chocolate or cheese?
Anis Larbi:Chocolate.
Peter O'Toole:Beer or wine?
Anis Larbi:None.
Peter O'Toole:No? Tea or coffee?
Anis Larbi:Coffee.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, okay. What's your favorite food?
Anis Larbi:My favorite food is so, originally, I'm from Tunisia. So it's a Tunisian dish, and it's called couscous. Probably you know that.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah.
Anis Larbi:This is my my favorite dish, especially my mother's. Of course, like many people, is couscous. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Just couscous. That's just like having rice. It's just a bit come on. What what how are flavoring your couscous?
Anis Larbi:What do you mean?
Peter O'Toole:Oh, couscous over here is just is just the is just the the grain.
Anis Larbi:Yes. Yeah. Because it's not it's not the the the original version. So the original version of couscous, we have some gravy, some sauce. In Tunisia, it can be spicy because we eat spicy food in in Tunisia compared to other countries in the region. And you have veggies. It can be carrots, zucchini, some put potatoes. You put peas, the peas in there, and some some meat, some decent meat, a lot lamb, tend to be lamb. Mhmm. I should invite you for a couscous in return of your invitation to York. Sounds good. In fact, last night's meal was was a North African couscous meal that that my wife does actually.
Anis Larbi:Good.
Peter O'Toole:It's actually You're okay. Yeah. I'm just checking the doors closed. It was actually really good. But, yeah, I'm the cook of the house. That dish is really good. That's her dish. I'm quite that that one's hers. When you cook, do you have a signature dish? A dish that you like to cook most?
Anis Larbi:Yes. Again, it's it's a Tunisian. This is called it's Tunisian pasta. It's a type of Tunisian pasta. To summarize, it's kind of a Arabiata, but spicy, very spicy food. Very spicy pasta. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:That's cool. That's it. My house, that's my meal. As in that's I I do that. That that's my sauce. Let me do it. Do you prefer to wash up or cook?
Anis Larbi:Sorry?
Peter O'Toole:You wash or cook?
Anis Larbi:I cook.
Peter O'Toole:You cook. Now is that because your wife's cooking isn't very good?
Anis Larbi:No. No. She cooks she's she's she's a very good cook. She's better than me. But, you know, there are some things I'm very bad I have to admit, I'm very lazy. Things that I can do it, but I prefer to cook. I prefer creating the challenge of building, creating something. Then when it comes to the other part, I'm more lazy. Have to admit.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. But what is your least favorite food? So if if you went if you if you were taken out, it was a work dinner and you're given food, it's a set menu, you have no choice. What would be the worst thing they could put in front of you?
Anis Larbi:Like, raw meat?
Peter O'Toole:Raw meat.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Sometimes they it's I don't know if in every country they have it, but in in, like, in France, they have, like, the tartar or some stuff.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Think that's steak tartar.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. It's something I I, yeah, I can't.
Peter O'Toole:That that's quite a good shout. TV or book?
Anis Larbi:TV, of course not. Books, no. I'm not a big reader. I read a lot of papers, but I'm I'm not a big reader, I have to admit.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi:Depends for what? It's a very easy answer.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Tunisia or Germany?
Anis Larbi:Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole:Germany or Singapore?
Anis Larbi:Singapore.
Peter O'Toole:Singapore or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi:Tunisia.
Peter O'Toole:Canada or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi:Tunisia. It's tough.
Peter O'Toole:France or Tunisia?
Anis Larbi:France or Tunisia? I mean, I'm French, and I'm Tunisia, and I'm I'm really I'm really both both are in my heart, and I think it's it's it's interesting you ask. Sometimes you you it's difficult to answer. It's not for it's not for diplomatic or political reasons. It's really because it's this this diversity of culture is something you don't want to split because it's your it's your nature. And I feel that for me, it's not like betraying if I say France or Tunisia. No. It's it's because I don't feel that I have to separate it because it's it's what really and what what you are. Of course, it can be 55, 40 five, but, you know, percentage is not something relevant.
Peter O'Toole:It's based I was just trying to get you into trouble.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. No. No. You are very good at it.
Peter O'Toole:Star Trek or Star Wars?
Anis Larbi:Star Wars.
Peter O'Toole:Do you have a favorite film?
Anis Larbi:A favorite film? Yes. It's it's it's a it's a movie when I was young. I don't know if the the the name is the same. It's called the Goonies.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Goonies.
Anis Larbi:I I I show I also show it to my kids just be you know, the the spirit of this movie, I I like it very much. It's very kind of innocent. It's just the movie for fun, and it's funny. And, of course, it reminds you of your childhood.
Peter O'Toole:Favorite color?
Anis Larbi:Blue.
Peter O'Toole:So not PE or APC or PE Texas red. No. You say blue.
Anis Larbi:Blue.
Peter O'Toole:Dappy. You could have said dappy at least.
Anis Larbi:It's it's true. Yeah. We we the the spectrum of colors is very fascinating now that you mentioned this. And for for surprisingly, I I but I've liked blue. Before I know for cytometry, blue was always my my my my my favorite colors as my car is blue, for example.
Peter O'Toole:No. Look look look at both of us.
Anis Larbi:I'm in blue.
Peter O'Toole:So We're both in blue. Yeah?
Anis Larbi:See.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. So I I concur. What would you say has been the best time in your career?
Anis Larbi:The best time in my career I still think my time in Singapore was was a peak in many things in terms of outputs, in terms of networking, in terms of becoming a leader. This is the time when I was in Singapore. This is the time where I was also a Isaac scholar from the Yep. The ISAC, the international city for advancement of cytometry. It brings it brought me a lot of visibility and recognition in in my institution. So I think Singapore was in terms of publication, it was crazy. In terms of and very importantly, a team. This is the period where I had my own lab, And we were I had quite big lab, we have 25 people. And for me, was very it's always very exciting building this lab, building this this research program on the biology of aging was really because you see people see you as a leader in what you're doing in the region where you are. It's a nice feeling.
Peter O'Toole:You know, in academia, there's a lot of freedom. You know, you you yes. You've got your research, but you could drive it in the direction you wanted. You have the core facility that you could develop as you wanted. Do you miss that freedom that you had in academia now that you're in industry?
Anis Larbi:Certainly, there is an aspect of the freedom that you don't have in the industry. This is clear. And and I think it's it's I like to say to give positive comments about transitioning from academia to to industry, but, also, I I like to make it very clear. You know? You can't decide that you the company is going this direction because you you are not the boss yet. When you are the boss, maybe.
Peter O'Toole:I like the way you said yes.
Anis Larbi:As a as a as a PI, you know, a PI, you're like a startup. You do everything by yourself. You find you find convince people to give you money, then you do it, then you show the the outputs, and so on and so on. Get the team, train the team. And then if if you're successful, you are the CEO of the startup and you get the recognition. Okay? It is very different. You have to work within the organization. Okay? And, yes, you miss the freedom of doing if you want for one month, you focus on one experiment because you want to achieve this goal, you you can do it. You take the risk. Okay? But you can do it. In in in the company, you you have objectives, KPIs, know all these terms. But to be also transparent, I have a a freedom in the company where I am now, Beckman Culture Life Science, is also because they they understand my profile. Okay? And this is very important when I say you you you can transit you can move from academia to industry, but you have to land in the right position and with the right people that understand what what you are and what you bring to the company.
Peter O'Toole:But that also means they trust you.
Anis Larbi:Yes.
Peter O'Toole:And they trust your because who you are, though, you are creating the direction the company's going in within your area. You are dictate you're you're the you're still a group leader in essence in what you're doing, but your team of, obviously, your senior management have obviously got faith in you to let you drive that as you feel fit. They're not they're not managing you in that respect.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Clearly, yeah. And and I think this is something which I I have to say I'm very lucky, and and and and and also choosing the company is important. And before joining the Beckman Coulter I I I did my homework and trying to understand what is the philosophy of the company, how people work there, how people are treated, what are your opportunities in the company to grow, that your voice is heard, and things like that. And I'm very lucky. I'm very thankful to my to my to my to all of the people from the organization. I have been working and I'm working now to have this trust. They trust me. They don't manage me in the sense of mana you know, micromanagement style. And that's why they they bring you to the company because you bring something different. If it's to put you in a in a in a in a in a a in a situation where you don't express yourself and your your expertise, there's no point to bring you.
Peter O'Toole:So who is your current line manager?
Anis Larbi:So my my current manager is Eda, Eda Hall. She's the director.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Go on. Who's her manager?
Anis Larbi:Manager is Mario Kush.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. I'm I'm just working out because you said not yet whose jobs you're lining up. So now they've watched this. They know that you're after them.
Anis Larbi:Yes. I'm coming, guys. Yeah. No. But, you know, but it's it's you know, in in the this is something also different from academia and industry. In in industry, you you have more possibilities, in my opinion, more possibilities to move around, to move up. In academia, it's clear. Master degree, PhD, postdoc, eventually general lecturer, eventually PI, and that's Lucky. That's it.
Peter O'Toole:Because, again, that's also a pyramid. You there's only so many positions there Yeah. To be taken in a similar way.
Anis Larbi:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:We talked about the best times in Singapore. What's been the most difficult time in your career to date? I'm not saying you're gonna have more difficult times. Okay. So what's been the most difficult time in your career?
Anis Larbi:Wow. Most difficult time in my career. Frankly, in the in this if if in the scale, at some point in in Singapore, you feel that you're not evolving or or you can feel that during your career, you don't get the recognition you should have Mhmm. Right, for various reasons. And maybe you're wrong, maybe you're right. I don't know. But you have this feeling, And this was for me difficult, sometimes the lack of recognition because the system is like that, you know, and you say it's a pyramid and every year you promote one person, for example, and you have 20 people, 10 of them should be promoted based on the and you can you know? And you feel you feel this is, you know, you are stuck in the in the in the system. And I think it's probably not just me. This happened to me when I was in Singapore. So I'm not saying it's because of Singapore. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. It's just just Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. That and I I I think I'm sure that happens everywhere. During those difficult times, what do you do at home to relax? What are your hobbies?
Anis Larbi:So I play soccer, football. Mhmm. Okay? I've been playing since since since I'm very young. And I was playing when I went to Canada. Even with with crazy weather, we are playing indoor. I was playing when I was in Germany also. I was playing when I went to Singapore. I play football, and for me, it's really what relieves the stress. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And yet you never wanted to be a footballer. You wanted to be a lab coat wearing scientist.
Anis Larbi:Yes. Because football is friendship for me. It's just with friends. I I played, like, one year in a club, but I didn't like the spirit of the competition and, you know, like that. But the football is friendship.
Anis Larbi:I meet some people now. I'm back in France. I meet some people. I played with them, like, thirty, forty years ago. Thirty, not forty, thirty years ago.
Anis Larbi:And it's people I played with them, and it's like I met them, like, yesterday. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:You obviously must travel a lot in the job.
Anis Larbi:Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:How how how do you find all the travel? How how much are you traveling at the moment? Let's put this into some context. How much how many days a week are you away?
Anis Larbi:So my my role as as in medical and scientific affairs, I have a global role, so I I really cover all the parts of the world. So I tend to do, like, long travels. If you have I was like so basically, you have two periods in the year. You have spring and fall, which is the conference spike. This is where I travel a lot. And apart from these two periods, I travel here and there for different type of conferences. But you know, I try to merge my efforts, like I was in Australia in April, think I went to Melbourne, So I used this opportunity to do a stop in in Singapore and then go to Korea. It seems very close, but it's very it's still six or eight hour flights, but still and it's tiring. It's tiring. It's it's some energy it's some energy to prepare these trips. I don't I mean, many people are in the same situation, but you need to prepare what you're gonna present or what you're gonna the meetings you're going, the people you're going to meet. And the most difficult part for me is when you travel, you don't work. You don't move the email list, and you know what I mean? So when you're back home, you end up with this ton of load of work you have to do.
Peter O'Toole:You not do that in a hotel room?
Anis Larbi:Yeah. But, you know, I like to sleep also.
Peter O'Toole:I I I no. I have to keep on top because otherwise, the mountain just gets too high.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. That's true. That's true.
Peter O'Toole:So constantly wherever I went from on a train, if I'm in an airport, I'll be I'll be working through them still.
Anis Larbi:Wow. Yeah. I try I do this sometimes obviously, but, you know, when you end up after you work, you have the work dinner. It's go back to the hotel. It's 11PM. Next morning, you wake up. It has 06:30 or seven. So yeah. Yeah. I'm not complaining. Yeah. I love what I do.
Peter O'Toole:Well, yeah, you could well, I can tell you enjoy well, love what you do, and and it it it always has its benefits once you're there. It's just getting there. Get the logistics are always there's always stress, isn't there?
Anis Larbi:True. Yeah. Yeah. That's in in everything you do, small or big task, if it's for a positive or negative thing, there's always some stress. It's a matter of how you deal with that.
Peter O'Toole:So in your career, you have any regrets?
Anis Larbi:In my career, I have any regrets. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes you feel you could do more.
Peter O'Toole:But could you really?
Anis Larbi:Yeah. Yeah. You can always you can always no. It's you know, they are there I mean, it's not like you could do more, but, you know, we when when you you have a PhD, the day you are you're okay. You do your defense and you have PhD now. Despite you have your PhD, you have this degree, there are many things you are not trained for. You're not trained for how you manage your budget, how you manage your time, how you optimize your research. You're not so, of course, this is the type of regret I have, but not because I was lazy. It's because we were not and I think some of the research programs, the the the the the graduate program now, they they include this type of of of kind of teaching, which I think is great.
Peter O'Toole:And one last question because we're coming up to the hour mark. If you could change any one thing in the world of flow cytometry, what would you change?
Anis Larbi:I will make it compulsory if I have total freedom.
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm.
Anis Larbi:I will make I will make it compulsory for government to provide free HIV testing and lymphoma leukemia testing in these poor resource countries. Procytometry.
Peter O'Toole:And one that the late Howard Shapiro and co would be very, very much behind as well and all the work that quite a lot of I'd I I you are a Emeritus Isaac scholar, and we know Isaac, are helping as as best they can, but it's it's little bits on the grand scale that really needs to be addressed. So and it's thank you so much for meeting today. I I found it fascinating to hear how the your career has developed and how you've moved into the commercial world. And I just get a feeling that we'll know you've you've moved in, you know, the senior management that actually probably hasn't changed that much of how you operate. You might not have your research group, but you have your focus, you have your group, you have your team.
Peter O'Toole:I just got a feeling that actually you are the same person doing the same job just with different targets, with different solutions to try and find answers to.
Anis Larbi:Yeah. We we we as we can contribute, and this is my take home message would be like, you can contribute from different manner to the research, to the R and D ecosystem. And I wanted to change that, and I wanted my contribution to be maybe more impactful, at least from the angle of how I see it. And that's why going to industry is another way to contribute to it. If you are lucky enough to find a good company, to find the right position where you can they can exploit your talent and then you're happy doing that, I think that's a that's a a that's a win win.
Anis Larbi:And, yeah, I haven't changed much in the way I deal with people, in the way I operate, but then it's to the company to identify this this and and see and see in you what could be useful for them.
Peter O'Toole:I do have I've got one extra extra question then. Please assure me. Tell me the money is better in industry.
Anis Larbi:It would be so in general, yes. In general, the money is better in industry. There are some there are some this is something people take into account, and there are some countries I I took always the example of France. So in France, and I hope it changed, but in France, for instance, when you start as a lecturer, a general lecturer in the university, your salary is not at all aligned with the degree, but not at all. Okay? So you can do any other job in the university except a lecturer. You'll probably have the same salary. Okay? So this is something which people are taking into account, and we have seen. And just to tell you, in in Singapore, there was this is something you have to to plan. So in Singapore, they have, for example, they have decided to reduce the the number of PhD students because they realize that maybe there is less interest now in that because of this type of consideration that they see that maybe the impact is not there or maybe the salary is not good enough, so why they should go for for this type of care. So it's a it's a people have to think about that. Why the salary is not up to what the people are doing. Being a scientist is not a job. When I was interviewing postdocs, sorry my answer is a bit long, but when I was interviewing postdocs, I said, look, if you're looking for a job, don't come to my lab. It's not a job. It's not an eight to five. Here you come for passion. I'm not saying you should do crazy hours. It's not the point. But you have to have the passion for this work because writing this rant, doing this work, staying sometimes over time because of the mice or because of the cells, it's not a typical job. You know? Traveling all these distance, meeting these scientists, fellow scientists around the world is not a typical job. Right? So, yeah, that's that's something you have to take into account.
Peter O'Toole:No. I I think you're bang on. It has to be your hobby. It has to be your passion. It has to be your game. It's thank you very much for joining us on Flowstar today. Everyone who's listened, watched, however you've, streamed, this one, please go do go back and look at the back catalog of Flowstar as well. So more coming up as well in the near future. But, Anis, thank you very much for being inspirational and really helping everyone understand what it's like to be in two different worlds.
Anis Larbi:Thanks for the invitation again, and it's really it was a pleasure, and thanks for doing this. I'm I'm really sure it's it's gonna help people understand if and how they could do this this transition, and they can always contact me or some of the people you are inviting to to to these sessions to to to discuss on on this topic. Thanks again.
Peter O'Toole:No problem. I look forward to shadowing in the lab.
Anis Larbi:Yes. Bye.
