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Intro/Outro (00:00:01):
Welcome to Flow Stars candid conversations between Dr. Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of Flow Cytometry brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bitesize Bio.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:12):
Today on Flow Stars I'm joined by Garry Nolan from Stanford University School of Medicine. And we talk about moving outside your comfort zone.

Garry Nolan (00:00:21):
I went there to learn biochemistry, something I didn't have. I mean, I always tell my postdocs and students, I don't think this is novel. Um, go learn something you don't know,

Peter O'Toole (00:00:33):
Collecting coniferous plants.

Garry Nolan (00:00:36):
I collect carnivorous plants and strange plants. I like odd plants.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:43):
Reading for escapism

Garry Nolan (00:00:45):
I only read science fiction and fantasy. I I'm only interested in stuff that's not real.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:55):
And UFO's

Garry Nolan (00:00:56):
I've been involved with this for the last 10 years since the, basically the CIA showed up in my office and asked me to help them, um, with some, uh, of their pilots and ground personnel, who'd gotten too close to what they claimed were UFO's uh, and that they'd been, um, had gotten sick. Oh,

Peter O'Toole (00:01:15):
In this episode of Flow Stars. Hi, welcome to Flow Stars I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York. And today I'm joined by Garry Nolan from Stanford and also for many other things, which we'll get to as we go along. So Garry. Hello?

Garry Nolan (00:01:32):
Hello. Nice to see you. And thanks for the invitation.

Peter O'Toole (00:01:35):
Yeah, likewise, it's been a long time since, since I last saw you, which I think was backing Glasgow maybe in the UK at Flow Cytometry UK, I think, uh, yeah, I dunno. I've been to a Cyto since then, but I can't remember that. I remember your talk really well from Glasgow though. Talking about, Akoya and Codex. Oh yeah.

Garry Nolan (00:01:58):
Yeah. That's pretty well. They went public. Um, about two months ago on NASDAQ.

Peter O'Toole (00:02:04):
I didn't realize actually they hadn't already gone public because I know a couple of the Beta sites over in Belgium against Lupron combo VIB. That's a how's how's it going with codex?

Garry Nolan (00:02:16):
Um, well, as far as I can tell, great. I mean, um, you know, the whole point of starting a company was to be able to get all the quality control and, um, let's say the, somebody to take care of the questions, the more routine questions on a daily basis. So all I know is that everybody who's got one nobody's emailing me about the problems anymore, at least. Um, and so that to me at least says, okay, they're getting what they need from the company itself. Uh, I know that their financials are doing great. Actually, I can't I'm on the board. So I can't say much more

Peter O'Toole (00:02:55):
So like this, I wasn't gonna start here, but now we're here. Let's, let's go with this because what is in academia, there's a lot of people who are resistant to commercializing things and putting a cost to it. What are the, I think you've touched on some of the benefits already, but why is it so important that out of academia, you still get spin outs, commercialization of the products? Why is that so important?

Garry Nolan (00:03:25):
So, you know, if you really believe in your idea, right, and you think that it has a commercial value, waiting around for the government to fund you is probably a big mistake, right? I mean, as, uh, as the technology expands, as more money needs to go into it, at the very least, there's no money left in the NIH and our side, or, um, I don't know what the various funding agencies are in Britain, but, uh, they just can't afford it anymore. Right. And so, and at another level, it, a review committee would look at it and say, well, this is a risk, right? So we don't know that we have the money for that risk. Whereas if you go to commercial side venture capitalists, they will look at it as a measure of risk, where there is a return for them, right? The NIH is not looking for a return. They're looking for a global return benefit and things like that, but the VCs are looking for a financial return. And so they'll look at the individual, um, and their track record, they'll look at the technology and it's what they think might be it's potential and say, okay, well, there's a measured risk here. Here's what we'll put in. Right. And so there's way more money obviously available. I mean, I can, I can drive down to Central Road, which is about maybe five miles from here and it's on my way every day to Stanford, I basically drive down it and there's probably half a trillion dollars along that road waiting to be somebody to talk them out of it. So, you know, that's really the opportunity. And, you know, I, I, I think it's, again, if you, if you just put it on a library shelf and expect people to take advantage of it, um, that's a mistake. I mean, we all know, I mean, scientists all know that they think that their ideas are the best thing since buttered bread. Right. But actually getting it to somebody and convincing them and then getting it out there to everybody else that, to me at least is the satisfaction that okay. Other people are using it now. Um, and, and that's the validation, I guess, that we're looking for.

Peter O'Toole (00:05:33):
Excellent. I guess with like of codex, you could, I know Heath Robinson, the setup in your own lab to a degree on other probes are more difficult, but I think scientists in general, would you agree are wanting off the shelf solutions so they can just do their science answer, the science questions not play around and they don't want be engineers

Garry Nolan (00:05:57):
Work with buffer conditions and all the rest? So, um, I mean, that is what I was mentioning earlier about the quality control. You just want something you can hand out and in the work again and again, and, you know, people I found even when I was a student, um, I would much rather buy the NEB ligase buffer than make my own and worry that the ATP hadn't gone bad. Right. So, you know, it's just, uh, it can get too expensive if you're, if you overdo it, you know, there's a little bit of, I think, self ability that you need to work on that. Not everything can come in a kit. Uh, but you know, I think that that's probably the best way to look at it.

Peter O'Toole (00:06:44):
So I'm just thinking about the commercialization. Would you say that you are actually saving the NIH money because a lot of your research and development funding and some of your lab members are paid by the venture capitalists?

Garry Nolan (00:06:58):
Yes. I mean, well, we're saving money in the sense that, you know, if you're bringing a new technology to the, to the table, uh, you're giving people an ability they didn't have before. So, you know, if it would take 10 times as much effort to access the information, um, that your technology can access with one X, then obviously you're saving money. Right. And then you're saving money on the, on the far end with that, you're, you're actually providing more data per unit value. Uh, and that hopefully at least in the work that I've always been interested in, translates into clinical applications. So if you're, if you're saving a single life to me, that's invaluable.

Peter O'Toole (00:07:43):
Yeah. So codex brilliant. Actually I really do like codex the technology, as I say, I just love, just love the approach, the strategy of it, but that's not the only company you spun out. Uh, not your only, so you've had a CyTof. Right. Maybe so multiplexing imaging, where did the ideas come from? Yeah. That's a lot of innovation and different innovations. Where do they come from? Right.

Garry Nolan (00:08:15):
Well, I'll go down the list real quick. So Rigel, which is another public company drug on the market, FDA approved. And I started that one when I was an assistant professor way back when that was when, just back to your earlier point, that was when there was a lot of resistance. I mean, I was told I was ruining my career if there's a write-up of me in Forbes about how I'm some sort of evil, you know, capitalist preying on, uh, you know, academia, um, and, uh, you know, the, what else was there, then there was Nodality which actually didn't do well. That was the only one that failed. Um, then there was Bina that we sold to Roche for 110 million. Um, and then there was a Ionpath, maybe Akoya, um, what was the other one. Oh Scale. It was another small company that I started that I also sold to Roche, uh, on the single cell combinatorial indexing, uh, that, uh, has been spun out again from Roche 30 million was invested. Um, and that's Jey Shendure, Cole Trapnell and myself. And that basically is a single cell, uh, protein, RNA, and, uh, attack seek, um, simultaneously multiplexing. So it actually the intent, the original intent of that, um, was to replace CyTof right. Because CyTof has a limit it's expensive. We can do CyTof Plus, we can do a hundred parameters, uh, easily, um, for one 10th of the cost. And we already published that in nature communications, uh, last year, I think, or earlier this year

Peter O'Toole (00:10:05):
So you're your own competition.

Speaker 3 (00:10:07):
Yes. Well, CyTof , I mean, yeah. Unfortunately, I mean, as useful as CyTof is it's expensive, um, and, uh, it takes specialized flow. It takes specialized mass spectrometry knowledge. Um, you know, I think it wet the appetite of the world, the immunology world, at least for high parameter flow. Um, you know, for many years, Becton Dickinson tried to beat it, promising me that they were going to crush it Becton in some Becton Dickinson didn't so high, they still haven't beat it. Um, and so, uh, you know, I think the, to me at least is, I mean, this idea came to me literally in a sort of a download in a, in a, a talk I was, uh, at, in Sweden, it just sort of fully formed. I said, wow, oh, that's a cool idea. Um, and, uh, you know, so we've taken it forward and it works,

Peter O'Toole (00:11:08):
How long did you develop. So from that moment, I've got an idea, this will work, how long to get from there to seeing the first results come off, an instrument that's used for it to commercializing.

Garry Nolan (00:11:23):
I mean, for the CyTof , I mean, it was many years, uh, I mean, originally it was invented by Scott Tanner. So I can't claim invention. Scott Tanner at the University of Toronto. Um, he had already started his company DVS. He came to me saying, okay, well, I'm a, spectrometrist, you're an immunologist, can you help me? Um, and so, you know, I saw the value of it and, uh, it was probably about two years for us to get the data for the, for the first science paper that we had on it. The paper in science that basically demonstrated the value and the utility. So it's usually about a year or two. I mean, codex from inception to our first instrument was about six months, but our first instrument was built on with, um, Legos, you know, to move stuff around and, you know, tape and glue and, you know, it was a mess. Uh, so it was basically two years to our first instrument. Um, and then shortly thereafter, the company was funded. Uh, and then there was another year to get it all ready to go in a beta form

Peter O'Toole (00:12:37):
It's remarkably fast. It gets read really fast and to get it to market and to get an, or even if it's not fully commercialized to get it to other end users that is incredibly fast. If we look at the microscopy world, it doesn't seem to be that fast. Certainly the commercialization seemed to take a lot longer, right. Is that because you've commercialized, it with spin out rather than going to big companies to start with, is it because you develop a company around it that it can be fast?

Garry Nolan (00:13:08):
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if you've ever worked within larger companies, I mean, I've not worked at a large company, but I've worked within many of them. There's this kind of emergent property of companies where the individuals are great people, but once it gets into a large enough organization, it just becomes molasses. And frankly, you have a lot of not too bright people end up running things, or at least they're inhibited in the kinds of decisions that they can make or they're conservative. And so you can't get good ideas running in a big company, unless it's something very unusual like Genentech and their research division where that kind of creativity is promoted. Um, and so I've always found that the smaller company, if you can get the right individuals, I mean, you can have the best idea, but the wrong individuals and it'll all just implode. Um, and so, uh, you know, get the people, I usually try to move some of my students out if they're interested into it. And then I have enough connections in the area to know who's good and who's not to put in as a, uh, as, you know, CEO or COO types. Um, and then you just stand back. I mean, I, I'm actually not a micromanager at all, ask any of my students. Um, and so if you it's about learning how to trust people and not get in the way. I mean, one of the things I saw in one of my earlier companies, Rigel, was that when the company gets big enough, they see the founder as, um, someone who is interfering with their decisions coming in and, you know, you're, you're second guessing them. And, um, at say science meetings, and for me, I was never trying to second and I was just offering my opinion, but they see it as a form of interference. So I found that you kind of have to let go and let them do their thing, and only interfere at the level of the board, not try to interfere directly because it sort of questions their authority. Um, and that's the best way to get pushed out of the company. So I learned that early on, and that's hard for scientists, especially if it's like your only idea, your first idea, you just don't want to see it go down the tubes. And, you know, commercialization research is a very different thing than academic research. And so you have to learn that difference. And a lot of scientists who start companies don't know the difference.

Peter O'Toole (00:15:37):
Uh, I, I can understand why that can be very difficult because obviously, you know, this inside out you've, you've got the concept, you know, where it's wanted, where you wanted to go, but maybe sometimes academics aren't the best business people either.

Garry Nolan (00:15:51):
Yeah, no, yeah, no. They think when they, they, they, they read how to start a company on the internet. And now they're an expert it's like reading how to do a protocol is not the same as doing it. There's a lot of art and Zen to the doing of science, as much as starting a company.

Peter O'Toole (00:16:12):
And as you say, getting the right people, who, who've got the business side, which may be very different to the way an academic would develop it. Yeah, no, it's yeah. Difficult times. Hey, how'd you, how did you learn to sit back and not get involved with the fine details you say was just learning on the,

Garry Nolan (00:16:35):
I mean, for me it was learning, you know, but also, well you have to be able to read a room, right. So if you're sitting in a room and you can see that the person who you've extensively put in charge of the project kind of fidgeting as you're talking, or you get a sense that they didn't like what you said, rather than attacking them say, okay, what is it that I did that caused it, causes them to be, you know, like a hermit crab and pull back and, and what operationally is happening politically, uh, in the immediate environment that, uh, you say, okay, well maybe I shouldn't be here. Right. Maybe I need to approach the problem from the outside rather than attacking it, you know, from within. And I think that I I've always been a good read of people. Um, and so a lot of scientists don't need the room. Um, and so one of the big VCs that I worked with Kleiner Perkins once on one of more companies, but the partner there that I worked with when she, and I would go out and, and talk to, uh, potential partners for the company, um, you know, the first thing that we did as sort of a debrief afterwards, is that, did you see how she reacted when you said that she was a very good read of the room too? Yeah. Um, and so I think there's a lot of that. That's how I learned, you know, was watching and, and, and, and listening to others who would say, Garry step back.

Peter O'Toole (00:18:08):
So, and I presume you bought those skills into your academic life as well, because I can imagine the same mistakes would happen with anyone. So I think that advice is really, really insightful actually. Uh, I've had to deal with that.

Garry Nolan (00:18:23):
Uh, you know, I was in, I was in # Baltimore's lab for my post-doc right. And any immunologist, you know, who's been around for a decade or two would know of David. Um, and so all the post-docs in his lab had been, let's say their mentors, favorite student, that's how you, you know, and you were good, right. Presumably, um, you were good, but then you get a bunch of people like that in one lab, all at once, and basically a bunch of premadonnas. And, uh, and so it's a microcosm of the bigger world that you're going to walk into, where everybody is smart. And so you have to, you have to read everybody and what their potential agendas are, right. That, um, you know, and, and not become a jerk, uh, but find a way to navigate how to work with a lot of other smart people towards a common and positive goal.

Peter O'Toole (00:19:27):
So you mentioned working in David's lab, I guess, I could be wrong here, but most famous for your innovations, uh, your technology developments in the innovate innovation space, and yet you started as a biologist. Uh, you know, David is a immunologist

Garry Nolan (00:19:46):
Biochemistry, immunologist. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:19:49):
So how, how did that transition occur? Is it a transition, or do you still see yourself as a cancer researcher, leukemia, immunologist? How do you see yourself?

Garry Nolan (00:20:02):
Uh, I see myself a mile wide and an inch deep. Um, so, you know, I was, I mean, I was an immunologist in, uh, Len Herzenbergs lab. I mean, but again, more I was his first or maybe second major, let's say molecular biologist, but, you know, I learned all the computer stuff from Lee Herzenberg. Uh, and then the immunology from Len and Len was an innovator. Um, and I actually watched Len interact with a lot of companies and I watched how he would do deals. He would bring me in to watch how he would do deals with other companies to get them to fund his lab. So I learned how to basically extract money from companies, uh, early on with, with him. And of course, Len had of the biggest patents at Stanford, right. He had the, he had the flow cytometry patent, which brought in a lot of money and then he had the humanized antibodies. So that brought in literally billions to Stanford. Um, and they made quite a bit of money to themselves. The Herzenbergs, uh, so in, in David's lab, I went there to learn biochemistry, something I didn't have. I mean, I always tell my postdocs and students, and I don't think this is novel. Um, go learn something you don't know. Right. Go learn a talent. And so David's lab was biochemistry and NF-kappa B and transcription factors were the big thing back then. And so that's where I went to what I went to his lab to do, but as it turns out, along the way, um, we needed to deliver genes better to cells. And that's how I came up with the 293 T-cell retroviral expression system, how to make retroviruses in two days rather than two months. Um, and that was just, that just grew out of need. Right. It was like, gee, I don't want to wait two months. How do I do this? Oh, I have this cell line that I know is really transeptable. Why don't we just try this? You know? And so that ended up turning into the Phoenix cell lines and actually all retroviruses are now made in 293 T cells or 293 cells

Peter O'Toole (00:22:14):
Super easy to work with as well.

Garry Nolan (00:22:15):
Yeah. Right. So, I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, I was still a better technologist than I was either a biochemist or an immunologist in David's lab. Right. But, um, it was, uh, you know, I think it was a great step. I mean, it was also a great place for, for connections, right. I mean, David's lab pretty much peopled the immunology, you know, uh, star scape over the years. And so, you know, you always had a bunch of people of similar mind around, and then again, watching people, watching the multiple different ways that you can be successful by looking at your peers and then looking at David, um, you know, and learning from him. I think I spent, you know, a total of 30 minutes one-on-one with David over my time, but I mean, he had 30 post-docs you learned from him in group meeting, which was two or three times a week. Cause it needed that much time for 30 postdocs to go over their updates.

Peter O'Toole (00:23:20):
Yeah. But very little time overall then.

Garry Nolan (00:23:22):
Yeah. But you didn't need it. I mean, you're surrounded by amazing people. And at the Whitehead at the time, you know, we were on the same floor with Richard Mulligan and, um, uh, the Weinberg lab, right. By wonder,

Peter O'Toole (00:23:38):
Oh, so you mentioned Len, he he's inventions as well. How much money that made for Stanford Institute? How much comes back into the lab itself to fund new research?

Garry Nolan (00:23:53):
Um, well for Lens lab quite a bit, you know, so the way it worked at Stanford, if you have a, um, intellectual property or royalties, 15% comes off, the top goes to the office of technology licensing to continue to fund that operation. And then the remaining goes one third to the school Stanford, one third to the department. Um, and then one third to the inventors and then the inventors will divvy it up according to some, whatever internal agreement they can manage to come up with. Um, and so actually in reality, none comes directly to your lab. Um, it comes to the department and then it's up to you to convince the department head that, you know, I should get this because of what I'm bringing. Um, and so you might say, well, what's the threat. Why, you know, where's your leverage to get any money, um, well your leverage is, it was what I've always done is if you don't give me this, I'm going to the next time you invent something invented outside of Stanford, uh, and you'll get nothing. Yeah. So yeah,

Peter O'Toole (00:25:11):
I certainly over here, it's quite hard to do that cause kind of your contract is with the university and you kind of tied in with a lot of those inventions if you use a lab space to come up with it.

Garry Nolan (00:25:23):
Yeah. I think it's, you know, I think it's what Stanford did early on was realize that, you know, leave it in the hands of the inventor because they're the ones who really believe in it, first of all, and trust in their decisions, as long as you're not doing something, which is essentially unethical or a real major conflict of interest. Um, and you know, over time, like with me, I've built a track record of not screwing anybody over. Right. I mean, my company, Akoya two of my post-docs, uh, that we started it with, they're equal partners with me. Right. I always make it equal partners. I don't take 90% because I'm the frigging professor. Right. Uh, because that's just not, I don't think it's fair. Second of all this postdocs are doing a lot of the work and if I've got five companies going on, I'm partaking of all of them. So why do I need to be greedy?

Peter O'Toole (00:26:24):
All right. It gives them an incentive to, to be deliver cause it's there. Yeah. They've got a big potential.

Garry Nolan (00:26:31):
Yeah. Well, with Akoya, I mean these two guys are going to do quite well

Peter O'Toole (00:26:36):
And hopefully carry on to caveat, innovating themselves.

Garry Nolan (00:26:40):
They've already started another company.

Peter O'Toole (00:26:42):
So then it goes, so yeah, definitely within themselves, the income comes back then that

Garry Nolan (00:26:48):
It's quite, you know, you need that financial incentive. I think back to the lab, back to the person who encouraged Them to commercialize it back to where we started, if you know, the why commercialize it, that income is vital for the university, for the departments, because it enables them to, it gives them breathing space. Yeah.

(00:27:08):
Well it comes back in directly as well through grants. So for instance, with Akoya or CyTof, um, and maybe, I mean, there's many, many other investigators at Stanford who write grants around the use of those things. So, and I write grants around it. And so, um, money flows that way. I mean, you know, probably truly hundreds of millions of dollars have come in over the years because of the technologies that I've basically brought to Stanford and I bring it to Stanford first. So there's a local incentive to say, okay, well, I'm going to get this established here first. Yeah. Um, so we get to basically take advantage of it before our peer institutions. Do,

Peter O'Toole (00:27:50):
How much resistance do you get, uh, for the early adopters to start using the equipment?

Garry Nolan (00:27:55):
Um, well really not much because, um, so here's the reason why I've, I've always worked with, um, technologies or I've found myself better able to work with technologies, you know, scientists, usually conflict with each other, um, over hypothesis, my hypothesis, your hypothesis, right. Who's right. Um, I look at the stuff that I work on as what's insufficient with the kind of data that I'm getting right now that I wish I could do better. Right. Cause if, if I'm playing with the same technology with everybody, it's just, you know, do I do my postdoc sleep less, right. Are we just, you know, smarter or whatever in general? You know, I don't think any group is necessarily smarter than another. It's really what tools they bring to the table. So I look for what's inevitable. Right? So what does inevitably that the kind of data that we need to collect, right? So we might not have the ability to do that, but then you imagine what the perfect technology would be. You know, I want to image and look at as many different markers as possible. That's a nice, you know, mission statement, but there's no technology or practicality behind it, but then you start stepping back, okay. How would I do this? How could I do 50 to a hundred markers? Um, okay. And that's 50 to a hundred antibodies. How am I going to measure 50 to a hundred antibodies? You can't do it with fluorescence directly. So, you know, and then you just go down that, that iteration path. Um, and so what you end up providing then having created that, and you go out and you publish a great, like we did with science or the first CyTof, or maybe, or other things, other people look at it and they go, wow, you always try to write the paper in a way that other people can see your paper as a window for their own success, through which they can do their own success. And they don't, ah, I can use that for what I'm doing and prove my hypothesis and beat that person. Right. So you basically, you end up being an arms salesman, you're selling a new technology to both sides and you don't partake in their argument. You just tell each of them that they can beat up on the other one, uh, better

Peter O'Toole (00:30:21):
That's for your, your, your, your arm in both parties, sit back,

Garry Nolan (00:30:26):
Sit back and, you know, enjoy the show,

Peter O'Toole (00:30:31):
Huge amounts of innovation, lots of work ethic. What do you do to unwind? What are your hobbies?

Garry Nolan (00:30:38):
Uh, I play video games, uh,

Peter O'Toole (00:30:42):
What's your favourite video game.

Garry Nolan (00:30:43):
Uh, I used to play, um, uh, EverQuest. It's a old, old, old video game. It's an old one. Um, and, uh, you know, it's just something that turns your brain off, but it's a bit of a strategy game. And, uh, I collect carnivorous plants and strange plants. I like odd plants, you know?

Peter O'Toole (00:31:12):
So you've gone from arming research groups and now you're arming plants

Speaker 3 (00:31:17):
And the hovering plants. Well, they're just fascinating. They're beautiful. Um, you know, they're, uh, I mean the carnivorous aspect doesn't interest me as much as just the unusual beauty of them. And, you know, you look at them and you think about evolution. How did this, how did this trait evolve? And it turns out that the trait actually probably only really evolved twice. Um, almost all of the carnivores have a common root back in time. Um, and as different as they might look today, they actually had a common ancestor that somehow, uh, you know, uh, tripped upon the ability to stick insects to it and then devour them for,

Peter O'Toole (00:32:08):
I asked you actually to have one or two next to you so we can actually see a couple of these.

Garry Nolan (00:32:13):
I can go out to the greenhouse and get one

Peter O'Toole (00:32:15):
That you'd say, how many of you got then?

Garry Nolan (00:32:19):
I've been around 150 different species most, as it turns out from Australia, um, Australia probably has the biggest collection of, or, uh, diversity of carnivores. Um, and then a whole bunch from Borneo and then others from scattered around north America, south America and Africa, that's where they generally are.

Peter O'Toole (00:32:40):
And do you cross breed these

Garry Nolan (00:32:43):
The, yes, that's the actually almost the most fun to take two extreme forms of say, um, the sun dues, the draw syrup and cross them. And actually you get a viable, you sometimes get a viable hybrid and that's the most fun to see, you know, but the, the, um, the Victorians were crossing the nepenthes, those are the pitcher plants that kind of hang you. If you go to Q gardens, for instance, you'll see, uh, these, uh, nepenthes in a large number of the big open, uh, greenhouses. I don't know what you call the large ones. Um, and because they just were so unusual looking, the Victorians were really big into, into collecting them at the time.

Peter O'Toole (00:33:27):
So you say, you're now comparing yourself to a Victorian, which is a, probably doing yourself a disservice.

Garry Nolan (00:33:33):
They were, but they were very inquisitive. Right. And recognizing things for their own beauty, right. I mean, they were busy pillaging the planet and bringing it all back to England, but, you know, sorry if I offend anybody with that, I'm British. So I can say those things

Peter O'Toole (00:33:55):
I was about to ask actually, what, what, what are your British roots?

Garry Nolan (00:33:58):
Uh, I was born in Liverpool. Um, my mother was a nurse. My father was, uh, a, an engineer on a ship. And so he got to go around and see a lot of the world. Um, and, uh, that was when he realized that at that time being from Liverpool, um, was not going to be a, uh, an upward mobility, uh, opportunity. Um, and so he decided to move the family to the US I think I was a year and a half when we moved.

Peter O'Toole (00:34:31):
Where did you move to,

Garry Nolan (00:34:32):
Uh, originally to Brooklyn. And then my dad had a job as, um, as an engineer, basically power services. And, um, then we moved to Louisiana and Seattle, we moved around a lot, trying to find a place where, uh, my mother, as it turned out was allergic to mosquitoes. So Louisiana and Seattle were out. Yep. So we ended up settling in Connecticut, which is pretty much where I grew up.

Peter O'Toole (00:35:01):
How long were you when you settled?

Garry Nolan (00:35:04):
I think five or six. Yeah, it was kindergarten. So five or six.

Peter O'Toole (00:35:10):
Lots of switching around, but settled at a school-age I guess if he could live anywhere, where would you live in the world?

Garry Nolan (00:35:24):
Hawaii.

Peter O'Toole (00:35:26):
There's not many carnivorous plants there are there

Garry Nolan (00:35:27):
No, but I'd have to bring them all there.

Peter O'Toole (00:35:31):
What's the attraction.

Garry Nolan (00:35:34):
I like tropical areas, you know? Uh, it just smells good. Okay. You know, it's just, uh, I mean, there's a lot of other places, but I mean, you're really talking, where do you want to retire? That's where I, you know, that's one of the places, Spain near Barcelona, right. Um, Portugal I'd actually wouldn't mind moving to Ireland or having a place there.

Peter O'Toole (00:36:01):
You just don't feel quite warm, tropical or warm areas to Ireland. Yeah. It's not the warmest

Garry Nolan (00:36:09):
If I, uh, it, what, what's the quote. If I contradict myself, I contain multitudes.

Peter O'Toole (00:36:15):
Okay. And you got Irish roots as well? Yeah.

Garry Nolan (00:36:19):
Yeah. Mother's maiden name? Murphy. Nolan. I mean, those are like two of the most common, uh, Irish names that,

Peter O'Toole (00:36:28):
Yeah. Even more common than O'Toole I think .

Garry Nolan (00:36:32):
Well, it was, I w I went back and looked, you know, following the rootes, the Nolans have somebody, I don't know who did it. They have the largest genealogy and actual genetics tracing. They have like, there's like a webpage where all these Nolans have collected the, the genetics and following it on an, on the X chromosome, the particular RFLP on the X chromosome that, and they can trace it all the way back. And then they traced it off to somewhere in the, somewhere in like it was Pakistan is where the original, um, mutation came from.

Peter O'Toole (00:37:12):
I guess probably most of us probably originate around that area from, from a European perspective and have European roots. Who in your career do you think has been, uh, this may have multiple answers actually. Who's been your inspirations inside and outside of work?

Garry Nolan (00:37:29):
Um, well, I would say inside, you know, inside work, I mean, the, the, my three mentors, um, w Len and Lee, uh, for different reasons, you know, David Baltimore for, you know, the, I guess the height of, of, um, focus that he had on, on things, um, an earlier mentor as well. This guy Aladar A Szalay with whom I still work. He was my undergrad mentor. Um, and so he and I worked pretty closely still together. He's actually taking a sabbatical in my lab. Um, he's from the University of Wurtzburg now, um, outside work, uh, you know, it would be people like, um, you probably don't know him, Jacques Vallée, uh, and, uh, he's mid eighties, and he's a very good friend. Um, and, uh, a guy by the name of David? Um, no, no, not him, John Mack. Uh, and, uh, there is one of my outside hobbies that I follow.

Peter O'Toole (00:38:38):
Okay. And who would you most like to meet if you could,

Garry Nolan (00:38:45):
Richard Dawkins that? Okay. I just love his stuff. And, uh, who's the other one, the, uh, uh, Roger Penrose, right. Just won the Nobel prize for quantum physics, but is really, at least his work is beautiful from quantum physics, but he's been the person most pushing the notion of quantum consciousness. The notion that, uh, your consciousness is not, you know, between your neurons, your consciousness is actually computed, uh, in your microtubials because they have a quantum signature. And that's where quantum computation occurs. He got a heck of a lot of flack for the idea. Um, but he's been the biggest proponent of it. And, uh, it just makes sense that

Peter O'Toole (00:39:35):
Thinking, I, I did look at your CV and it said that you an outspoken proponent thinking of proponents or translating public investment into basic research for public welfare. Why outspoken?

Garry Nolan (00:39:49):
Well, because back in the nineties, it was something that you didn't do, back when I was starting. I mean, you were dirty for, you know, for touching, uh, uh, commercialization and it, you know, it gets back to that term. It was like, to me, it was like, it was like inevitable, you know, you're, you, you watch these funding cycles at the NIH go up and down. And yet commercial opportunity, they in commercial monies were always available. Right? I mean, I could sit down. I mean, because I had developed a 293 cell system when I arrived at Stanford, everybody wanted to work with me, including a lot of commercial entities that were gene therapy. And I could convince a VP who could write a cheque for a quarter of a million dollars, which is basically an NIH grant that you traumatize yourself for two years to get, um, I could get in with a lunch. Right. So, duh. Right. So, um, but there was still this constant pushback. So what I learned early on, because I went and got permissions to do this, um, and I got a track record written down. This was before Stanford even had an offer, you know, a, uh, a Dean of conflict of interest. I'm sorry. I use air quotes all the time. Uh, it was, um, I got all the letters to, to make sure I was doing it right, so that when people came and accused me of things later, I said, look, I've got all the permissions. The deans have approved this with the following boundary conditions. So go away, leave me alone. I think

Peter O'Toole (00:41:35):
It's still such a dirty, it's not such a dirty thing anymore is it,

Garry Nolan (00:41:39):
But it, it, it just comes from knowing that you're right. Is one of the things I tell my students. I said, if you know, you're right, absent of it being illegal or unethical, do it. Don't listen to people who tell you, you shouldn't do it. Right. I said, because really what they're doing is they're using the most primitive form of control. They're using shame to make you do something that they want you to do or not do, so if you really believe that what you're doing is right, do it, don't let anybody stop you because if you do, you're basically you belong to them.

Peter O'Toole (00:42:18):
Okay? So this is really, this is really back to reading people and understanding motivations and the people themselves. So it's fascinating that on that balance of using public investments for basic research, how did you balance the importance of publications over patents?

Garry Nolan (00:42:39):
Oh, publications come first. It doesn't, I mean, you know, you can patent something well, before the publication is out, you can put the patent in, uh, but I never let patents or commercial stuff get in the way of a paper. I mean, I continually have even conflicts with all of my companies over the years where they say, well, we don't want you to publish that. You know, I said, no, no, no, no, we're publishing it. You know, the other sort of adage that I always say is if you, if you stop somebody from doing something or try to stop, and they will invent a way around you, don't give people a reason to invent a way around you. If you give them the information of how you made that buffer, they'll buy the buffer rather than inventing their own. But the moment you invent your own, somebody invent your own, then they're going to find a way to commercialize it around you. So just give it to them. And because people are inherently lazy, they want to get something which works.

Peter O'Toole (00:43:47):
Yeah. Is it lazy or is it just wanting to speed up the process is that aren't arms, race again. Isn't it? The weapon, if you can buy the weapon because you went up in the arms race, you want to go through his own quicker.

Garry Nolan (00:44:01):
Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:03):
So quick fire questions, Mac or PC,

Garry Nolan (00:44:08):
PC,

Peter O'Toole (00:44:09):
Early bird, or night owl

Garry Nolan (00:44:12):
A night owl. Both actually, but I get more work done at night.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:19):
Yeah. Why, why, why do you think you're better at night than the morning?

Garry Nolan (00:44:23):
It just seems quieter. Okay. Sort of like a, the mental ether just quieter. You're less likely to get interrupted with an email that you see urgently requiring you to do whatever.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:42):
Okay. So, so yeah. So things are just your space more than being interrupted yeah. Over the past 18 months or so what you find better virtual or physical meetings?

Garry Nolan (00:44:54):
Oh, definitely still physical. I mean, I've got, actually my first trip first on a plane trip was just last week down to Santa Barbara. I'm part of the, uh, Sean Parker. Uh, he started Napster and was a co-founder of Facebook and he has a, um, a Parker foundation for Cancer Immunotherapy. And he's got a lot of the immunotherapy people involved and I'm there for basically technology. And so he pays for us to go to some very nice places, uh, twice a year when we were allowed. And this was our first one down in Santa Barbara. Um, so, uh, it was wonderful to finally be able to do things again, um, in person, although I have to say I'm a bit of an introvert. Um, and so I like being alone. So the last 18 months weren't really that bad for me. I mean, zoom is not my preferred mode of interacting. Um, but uh, not traveling was definitely a joy.

Peter O'Toole (00:46:04):
Did you find you had more time or actually things just got busier?

Garry Nolan (00:46:07):
No. No. Plenty. Lots more time. Lots more time to focus. And, um, no, it was, it was fantastic. Okay.

Peter O'Toole (00:46:18):
What's your favorite food

Garry Nolan (00:46:24):
Hamburgers? Ooh, Curry. Actually, I have to say no, I'll take that back Curry

Peter O'Toole (00:46:31):
In America or in Britain

Garry Nolan (00:46:32):
Britain. No, no, no. When I go to, when I go to London, I head straight for the local, whatever, the closest, decent Curry restaurant the best in the world by far.

Peter O'Toole (00:46:44):
What is your, uh, what food you least? Like if you were to get taken out for one of these meals and as soon it was put in front of you think, oh, no, I really don't want that.

Garry Nolan (00:46:52):
Um, any kind of fishy fish or lamb? I like fish I don't like fishy fish. I can't eat lamb. It's too gamey.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:04):
I'm with you on the fish

Garry Nolan (00:47:05):
Anything that I can see or taste and know what it was if it was alive, that bothers me. So I can't handle bloody food. That reminds me that it was alive hamburgers because they're all mashed up and you have no idea what it was

Peter O'Toole (00:47:25):
So your Steak is always well done then

Garry Nolan (00:47:27):
Yes. Crisped.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:32):
I've got to ask seeing as you like hamburgers what'd you have on it, just ketchup, ketchup and mustard, barbecue sauce.

Garry Nolan (00:47:38):
Um, and pickles. I don't like the tomato and the lettuce on it.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:46):
Just too much faff.

Garry Nolan (00:47:48):
It's just too much. It gets in the way of the real thing. You're trying to taste.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:53):
Totally get that as well. So would you stop off a McDonald's for quick eat? Oh, yes.

(00:47:59):
McDonald's or Burger king.

Garry Nolan (00:48:02):
A McDonald's

Peter O'Toole (00:48:04):
Yeah, a good man. My answer is a big Mac quarter pounder, or just a hamburger,

Garry Nolan (00:48:11):
Quarter pounder.

Peter O'Toole (00:48:14):
I do like a hamburger just to plain, no matter what I have my chicken sandwich or wrap, whatever else. We'll always, always have a hamburger just on the side. Yeah.

Garry Nolan (00:48:23):
Yeah. I mean, I have to watch it. I mean, I, I actually, I managed to lose 30 pounds over the cold COVID time. So it's, uh, you know, the not traveling has really helped, uh, and I've gotten myself down to a target.

Peter O'Toole (00:48:38):
Wait, so is that just a healthier diet too? Have you been exercising

Garry Nolan (00:48:41):
Both? You know, it's actually not drinking milk of all things and only eating breakfast and dinner and just going without lunch,

Peter O'Toole (00:48:53):
You drink milk when you travel.

Garry Nolan (00:48:54):
Uh, if it's a bit I did, if it's available, I won't anymore because it was, I mean, the reason I got into into milk was because we moved to Connecticut, the water, when I was a kid tasted awful, it had so many additives. It was just like, how could anybody like this? It was gross. And so, you know, we just got milk and that was my standard. Um, and it wasn't until I moved to California that I realized that actually water can taste good

Peter O'Toole (00:49:18):
Or not taste much, first of all, but

Garry Nolan (00:49:20):
At least yeah, can be refreshing without, you know, the chemicals,

Peter O'Toole (00:49:25):
Ah, the thought of milk in other places that may not be ice cold or might not be really fresh. Yeah. I don't do milk outside the house

Garry Nolan (00:49:37):
I mean, it's, that stuff was deadly with me and my, my, my grandmother would send us from England, these care parcels, uh, that were usually filled with Cadbury's chocolate. Right. And you know, back in the, I have to say back in the eighties, I think the chocolate was better. I don't know what they've done to it. At least here in the United States. It's just, they turned it into Hershey bars. It's gross. Um, the stuff that they make. So, but chocolate and milk are deadly for me.

Peter O'Toole (00:50:04):
So next time you're in the UK. I will get you the Cadbury's chocolate capris chocolate Dairy milk. It's got to be Dairy Milk. Okay. Tea or coffee,

Garry Nolan (00:50:17):
Uh, Tea to get up and then coffee. Midday.

Peter O'Toole (00:50:23):
Okay. Wine or Beer

Garry Nolan (00:50:26):
Wine. I can't drink beer. I don't know why. It's just something about it. Not even a stout. I like certain British beers. The, the, um, the warm drafts. Yep. Uh,

Peter O'Toole (00:50:39):
Ales, bitters and Ales.

Garry Nolan (00:50:41):
Bitters. Yeah. But brown and bitter

Peter O'Toole (00:50:44):
Stout. Guinness Murphy's

Garry Nolan (00:50:48):
Guinness is a bit too bit too strong for me. I mean, it's good, but I could never get drunk on beer martinis, gin martinis. Absolutely

Peter O'Toole (00:50:59):
Not espresso martinis,

Garry Nolan (00:51:01):
Espresso, martinis. What's that

Peter O'Toole (00:51:04):
Really,

Garry Nolan (00:51:04):
They put espresso

Peter O'Toole (00:51:07):
Coffee lacquers. So kahuna generally

Garry Nolan (00:51:10):
Next time.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:10):
No. Okay. Well now I owe you two things, so I'll actually get you the Cadbury's chocolate and you can take it down with an espresso martini, a Red or white wine. He said, wine so red or white?

Garry Nolan (00:51:21):
Red. Red.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:23):
American.

Garry Nolan (00:51:25):
I mean, there are some good California wines for sure. You know, but I can't beat the French onlines in general.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:33):
So you've had a lot of time at home, uh, throughout it. What would you rather do read a book or watch TV?

Garry Nolan (00:51:40):
Read a book.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:41):
Okay. What sort of genre?

Garry Nolan (00:51:44):
I only read science fiction and fantasy. I I'm only interested in stuff. That's not real.

Peter O'Toole (00:51:55):
So in that case, what's your favorite movie?

Garry Nolan (00:51:58):
Um, uh, Thor. Ragnarok.

Peter O'Toole (00:52:04):
Okay. Good feature

Garry Nolan (00:52:06):
I probably watch that about 80 times, um, or aliens the second of the alien franchise. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:52:15):
Star Trek or Star wars,

Garry Nolan (00:52:17):
Star Trek. Yeah. Absolutely. Star wars is, I mean, it's okay. But it's just too, I dunno. Just a little too child childlike

Peter O'Toole (00:52:26):
Are coming through to more serious stuff again. This it deviated off that and it was fascinating.

Garry Nolan (00:52:34):
I know. I'm sure now, like intelligence agencies have like a total profile of me now.

Peter O'Toole (00:52:40):
I don't know. But at any conference organizing inviting you over, they know exactly what they've got to keep you for to drink, to eat, to read. If you could change one thing in scientific research, what would it be?

Garry Nolan (00:52:53):
Um, well the review process, which is inherently broken more in the grants arena than it is in, um, paper review. But, um, I mean, I'm not the first obviously to say that it's broken, but the grants, especially, I mean, the NIH is just, it's just awful. I sit on grant committees all the time and you know, I don't think a lot of grants get a fair shake and all it takes is one person to give it a low score on a board of 50. And that's it. It's just sunk. And there's, you know, there's no amount of arguing that you can do that doesn't come off as combative. Uh, that's going to basically bring, uh, a grant back into the fundable range. And I just have always felt that large committees are wrong. You know, small committees are what you need, but you're more likely to come to consensus with a group of five than a group of 50. Um, and so, uh, you know, I remember I was put in charge of a large, one of the large program projects at the NIH to get it funded. And they said, okay, what do you need? I said, I need the following three or four people and we'll, we'll pick the best. And then they said, okay, well, that's, that's good. Um, here's, here's a list of 50 people that will be on your committee. And I just said, this is a disaster. You know, it's just gonna, it just turns into a disaster.

Peter O'Toole (00:54:32):
I take it at that point. So I sit on the UK, the UK, uh, funding panels. You say it's big. Does that mean there's not much discussion because there's 50 people. So actually people tend to talk to the ones that they've been charged to talk about. And very few others contribute to that point.

Garry Nolan (00:54:49):
Yeah. Well, they're not, how can you, right. I mean, not all given an opportunity to talk and you know, we all know this. Some people are just more talkative than others. They all think that, you know, and they become a dominant voice, uh, in many of the decisions and that's just wrong. Um, because there's plenty of smart people who just don't like to talk because it's a large group. Uh, and so I don't think those large groups really pay much attention to the psychosocial environment and context of what happens to humans and larger groups. Um, and so, uh, you know, you're basically playing to the, to the alpha, uh, and the, the alpha is not always the smartest in the room

Peter O'Toole (00:55:38):
From the UK side, I think depends on the chair very much. And if you have a good chair, they will bring people in, even if they've not been talking to it. Right. Because they know they've got skills in that area and they will invite other comments, especially if there's a bit of a discrepancy between two people with the score or as you say, an, an odd, an old score, then things thrown in with sets

Garry Nolan (00:56:01):
Well, no, if there's been a study ever done on large versus small groups in terms of looking at the same sets of grants and do they fund the same brands? I mean, I know for instance, I don't know if you've seen it when you're looking at graduate students. Um, I know that if we have, let's say faculty looking at the, at the graduate students, and then we all look at all the, everybody let's say we get 50, we all seem to pick the same seven right now. That's interesting to me. So do we need 50 to choose the same seven, 50 people to choose the same seven? So I would love to see if there's been any kind of statistical analysis done on something like that.

Peter O'Toole (00:56:48):
I do. I just thinking about this, I got a couple of grant panels actually currently at the moment. So you're going through lots of different things. I tend to be a really generous scorer and a really bad score, but I really try and pull them apart. Yeah. The ones that are good, I will give them a

Garry Nolan (00:57:06):
I'm the same way as you. I, I I'm very forgiving. I mean, I am the best person to ever get your grant or paper to review because I, I generally see the merit in what people are trying to do. And I would rather spend the time drawing it out than dismissing it Outright.

Peter O'Toole (00:57:27):
Yeah. But I do get bad scores too

Garry Nolan (00:57:31):
Me too. Oh, no, no, no, no. If it's bad, it's like, okay, this is, this is hopeless.

Peter O'Toole (00:57:36):
Okay. How critical is your feedback? My mine is brutal because I think you've got to be honest. You've got to say if it's a low score, be nice with it, but be honest because then it can correct it.

Garry Nolan (00:57:48):
Yeah. I mean, unfortunately with the NIH, you don't really give, you know, if you, if a paper, uh, if a grant is not fundable, they generally don't even get the room. They don't even get discussed. So therefore, any comments that you might have even written are never checked,

Peter O'Toole (00:58:11):
UK's pretty good. And actually, even some of the American ones, I haven't seen what the feedback processes yet, but, uh, we'll see, I can't say too much at the minute at

Garry Nolan (00:58:22):
A lot of the private ones, Peter, um, are, uh, they won't do it either. You know, they just won't spend the time because they'll get hundreds of grants and, and people will just sort through it and go garbage, garbage, garbage, garbage, oh, this is, you know, maybe this is going to be a must.

Peter O'Toole (00:58:39):
I would love to know what to actually, I'm also. Sometimes I can be more critical of the ones I top rank than the ones that aren't just because you think, well, A it's going to get funded, but they can be so much better if they do. It's still great. You suddenly realize if they read these comments, they think the score is going to be really bad. And we ended up having to justify why you're saying bad comments. Did you find the same, right?

Garry Nolan (00:59:03):
No. It's um, generally for me, it's not so much the experimental protocol that they've done. It's how they presented it. Um, and so generally my comments are around. You need to put this here, need more of that there. Um, I mean, experimental protocol. Yes. If there's something, but I don't know about you nut more. I think too often, for instance, I be given an immunology grant to review and I'm not an expert in every form of immunology. And so I don't have anything to tell them whether or not they should be a suppressor macrophage, or they should be using this antibody of that antibody, it's just not my domain. I I'm more the big picture and how to present the idea. So that it's, um, so that it's, it's fundable.

Peter O'Toole (00:59:53):
Yeah. The pitch we are nearly up to an hour. I did say it would go really fast, but I want to ask you, what is the next challenge, the next big thing that will happen, uh, that, that is possible. And also, if anything was to be possible, what would you like to see developed?

Garry Nolan (01:00:16):
So I think, well, both of the things that I'm involved with, uh, are I think both possible and next, and one is an atomic imaging approach. Uh, and that's actually reading the position of every atom, both math and position, uh, in an object. Um, and, uh, so that's one. And then the other is the use of, um, basically novel physics, quantum entanglement approaches to measure things at a distance. Um, and so I actually presented an idea, oh gosh, it must have been about almost eight years ago now to a nature conference of view of how to use quantum entanglement or how we should be using quantum entanglement. I mean, I'm not a quantum physicist, so, but I thought, you know, I think it should be possible to do this. And then lo and behold, three or four years later, somebody came out and showed that it was possible, right. To basically measure. So the idea is that you would quantum entangle a photon, send it into a cell, have it, do something. And then the information you got back was similarly quantum entangled. Uh, and that way you could only receive back the information that you put in, not noise, right? Because noise is not similarly entangled. Um, and so it doesn't read back in, in the detector. And so this is now being used in the military was something called quantum radar as a way to, uh, as a way to, um, read out, uh, you know, things at a distance. So you could, you can see a plane at a distance because you're only receiving back the information you sent out and they can't spoof you by sending the same kind of radio waves back. Cause they're not entangled and entangled. Photon is basically a barcoded photon, right? And so you only read back the barcodes that you sent out. So it ends up being, and there's a couple of papers already been published now on this kind of approach. And it's just the, the, the signal to noise is, uh, is extraordinary. And I think with the right tools, one's going to be able to basically measure things at a distance without touching them.

Peter O'Toole (01:02:37):
I was going to ask you if you ever worry about not having another brilliant idea, but obviously that you've just answered that question within a say, your mind is already working out how to apply these

Garry Nolan (01:02:48):
The horizon, right? I mean, I've been reading science fiction since I was eight years old and you know, everything from aliens to work drive to, you know, all kinds of fancy creative imagination that people come up with. And it's, you know, you're, you're sort of, you've already been shown the horizon.

Peter O'Toole (01:03:10):
I've got to ask two more questions. Cause you moved your head to the side for one minute. And I saw some dumbbells, I think.

Garry Nolan (01:03:17):
Oh yes, yes.

Peter O'Toole (01:03:18):
Wait, are you curling at the moment?

Garry Nolan (01:03:21):
Um, only about 40 or 50 nothing, you know,

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
Is that pounds or kilos. Oh

Garry Nolan (01:03:28):
Pounds.

Peter O'Toole (01:03:30):
Thank goodness. And it's still a fair bit if my maths are rights to be curling on each individual. Yeah,

Garry Nolan (01:03:36):
30, I mean 30, 40, it's it. That's the limit. It's all I need to do. You know, it's not about bulking. It's just about, for me, it's just about actually I have a, I have a, I've had a bad back, you know, since I was 30 or so. And so as long as I stay fit, um, it's not a problem. I know. I don't, I don't, my back doesn't go out because when you back goes out, it's two weeks. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole (01:04:01):
I can empathize for sure. So is that the only exercise you do with the weights?

Garry Nolan (01:04:07):
Um, I have, uh, I have a, oh, well, no, I do all kinds of stuff. I, I have a trainer online three times a week. Um, and he puts me through my paces and then I ride my bike.

Peter O'Toole (01:04:20):
Okay. And one other comment is just before we went, started talking, you mentioned UFO's.

Garry Nolan (01:04:30):
Yeah. So I don't know if anybody's ever seen the, uh, if you've seen all the stuff on the, um, the fighter pilots around the USS Nimitz and the UAPs, right? The UFO's it's been all over the news. I mean, if you haven't, you've been living under a rock, um, and the military has admitted that, uh, these things, you know, they don't know what they are, but the real, so I actually work with the team who got those videos released from the Pentagon. And I've been involved with this for the last 10 years, since the, basically the CIA showed up in my office and asked me to help them, um, with some, uh, of their pilots and ground personnel, who'd gotten too close to what they claimed were UFO's. Uh, and that they'd been, um, had gotten sick, uh, and, uh, they had asked around who's the guy who knows the most about blood analysis. And they said, oh, you need to go talk to this guy, Garry Nolan, he's got this instrument called a CyTOF. And so they showed up at my office on announced one day and they started showing me the data. And I honestly thought it was a candid camera joke, um, until it started getting serious. And now it is just go, you know, go look it up. People say, oh, Garry's drank the Kool-Aid, et cetera. You know? No I'm still involved with it.

Peter O'Toole (01:05:52):
Is there any mute, can you pick up immune signatures or changes for these pilots?

Garry Nolan (01:05:56):
Um, unfortunately it had happened too long ago, uh, for it to happen, but we've actually got some work ongoing where, um, if these things happen again, we'll be able to collect the blood more immediately.

Peter O'Toole (01:06:13):
So you think that UFO's are, do you think these UFO's are natural to earth or do you think they are

Garry Nolan (01:06:22):
No idea? And I, I just don't know. I, all I'm about is collect the data. Don't ignore the data, come to no conclusions, because if you come to a conclusion you're wrong and then you're debunked. So just collect the data.

Peter O'Toole (01:06:40):
Okay. I'm glad I asked that last question. That was brilliant, Garry. We were over the hour, but thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you everyone for watching or listening to Flow Stars. Uh, so I'm Peter O'Toole, please do look at the other episodes that are out there and subscribe to the channels. Garry. Thank you very much. Brilliant. Thank you.

Garry Nolan (01:07:00):
Thank you so much.