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Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations between Dr.

Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of Flow Cytometry.

Brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite-size bio.

Hi, today on Flow Stars, I'm joined by Jessica Bach, system professor,

a Com's Cancer Institute of the Wayne State University.

And we discussed her difficulties getting through grad school.

Grad school was a struggle for me mostly because I, I was,

I, I flailed a lot in grad school, you know,

I kind of went to grad school 'cause that's what you do.

And then I wasn't sure what I was doing,

What she enjoys about attending conferences.

It's when I can be around other scientists and like,

talk science and not feel like I'm, um, the weirdo in the crew.

And the time she had to process a spleen in front of a news crew.

It was crazy. I was on the news like multiple times.

We'd have camera crews coming in. I'm in the, I'm in the hood trying to,

you know, process a spleen and they're like, can you do that slower? No, dude,

I can't do it slower, but it's, you know, it's a red looking

Oh, in this episode of Flow Stars.

Hi, I'm Peter Oton from University of York, and today ONM Flow Stars.

I'm joined by Jessica back from Carl Manano Cancer Institute at the Wayne State

University. Jessica, how are you today?

I'm doing well, Pete. How are you?

I'm cool, thank you. Do you know, I, I've known you for quite a while, but,

and yet I don't think I know. I, I, yeah,

you need your Wikipedia page because I dunno everything about you.

So this is gonna be fascinating for me to get to know more about yourself

As well. It's very hard to Google me because there are,

when you put Jessica and back together,

it's like Jessica Simpson back with somebody, you know?

And so it's very hard to Google my name.

I I I didn't try that hard. Oh, yeah.

It felt inappropriate to try and stalk you before we actually, that

Just, you know,

they tell you you're supposed to Google yourself and see what comes up and

nothing ever comes up. So I'm good

In a couple of weeks time when I'll come up just behind you and you'll go, oh,

over here. Don't forget, we'll be in Montreal, so we'll be together.

Yeah, there you go.

I, I'm gonna ask, so, so Jessica,

you describe what your position is at the moment.

Okay, so I am the Associate Director of the Microscopy Imaging and

Cytometry Resources core. So it's a really long name. We like to call it nicker.

So, um, I have a director above me who is, um,

a microscopist by training. So our core is just, is kind of,

originally it was three separate cores and several years ago from federal

funding, we brought 'em together and combined 'em into one.

So we have a flow cytometry branch, a microscopy branch,

and a small animal imaging branch. So predominantly I'm in the flow.

Um, but I oversee all of the operations as well.

So I do a lot in the animal imaging side as well.

And then I tend to leave the microscopy to Kami, um, my boss. And,

uh, yeah,

so we have like 25 instruments spread

across five different buildings on campus. So it's Oh wow. It's big

Five five. Yeah. So that's a distributed model.

It's, so we ha so the, we have three main labs.

So one main microscopy lab that's in one building,

one main flow cytometry lab that's in a different building.

And one main animal imaging lab that's in a third building.

And then we have two, um, satellite facilities. Um,

so we're in the medical campus at Wayne State, um,

which is about a mile from the main campus.

So we have one instrument on main campus. And then there's a, um,

integrated by a sciences building that's in like a technical center area that

kind of has some integration with bio, um, like with startups and stuff.

So that's another mile away. And so we have some fac,

some instruments in that facility as well.

Okay. So that's pretty dive. There's a lot to, to delve into there.

So I'm gonna take you back a step and say, so what,

what was your undergraduate in?

Uh, biochemistry. I'm a chemist by training.

One minute. A biochemist isn't a chemist.

I know my, uh, my husband, who's an inorganic chemist says exactly that. Um,

he says, that's not real chemistry. So,

but my degrees are in chemistry departments,

so I had to take all of the other classes to Yes,

You even have a top that says chemistry on it.

I do. So I just got that. Um, I was invited back to my old department,

so my PhD is also in biochemistry. Um,

and I got it here at Wayne State and I was invited to give a talk in the

chemistry department a couple of months ago, um, about the core and what we do.

Um, so whenever an alumni comes back, they give us a T-shirt.

So I got a T-shirt and I was like, Hey, all excited about my T-shirt.

And, and I, I do, you know,

it's just dawned on me that you just said your husband is an organic chemist,

which, which does that mean he's not real? Does

That make it happen? Something like that. Yeah. He, um,

Inorganic husband, you know. Right.

And tur completely.

And that's what he did. He did all of those atriums and, and TURs and yeah.

So, um, he, he's an A, b, D He did not actually write his dissertation.

So he went through grad school and then he started working and he, um,

ran a small company for about 20 years. And they did, um,

they chemically treated parts for the automotive industry to help with, um,

emission standards. And he just closed that about a year and a half ago.

And now he is a middle school science teacher,

which, um, has been quite a adjustment. I mean,

I think he enjoys it, but it's,

it's way different than running your own little business.

That's quite,

that that's a bigger career change than where I was going with these questions.

Oh yeah. Your undergrad. Yes. As a biochemist,

your PhD I think was biochemistry.

Yes. Yeah.

So, and then, but then what about postdoc?

My postdoc was in tumor immunology. Yeah.

So I never took an immunology class ever in my formal training,

and I decided to join an immunology lab for my postdoc. And, um,

so my, my dissertation was on, um, DNA addicts.

And so I was doing like two dimensional NMR and structure and repair of DNA

addicts nucleotide excision repair stuff. And I decided I wanted to be,

it was cancer related. Um, but I decided I wanted be closer to the patient.

So I joined an immunology, tumor immunology lab,

and I went straight from like benchtop purified D-N-A-N-M-R to

animals and cells. And that's where I got exposed to flow, was doing that.

But yeah, it was a big, it was a bit of a leap.

Yeah. Because I,

I wouldn't say the biochemistry compliments can't get the compliment into

immunology. Mm-Hmm. You gotta go with

I got it. Yeah. Dad jokes are strong today, it sounds like.

So, so you, so you did a postdoc. Mm-Hmm. So, so you,

you're on one career trajectory. Mm-Hmm.

And here you are running a core facility, a large core facility. Yeah.

Why did that change

At the end of my postdoc? Um, so I, well, so, okay,

take it back a step to my graduate degree.

I took eight years to get through grad school,

which is a really long time and it's not normal. Um,

but I decided in about year four to completely change my project and then it

didn't go as smoothly as we thought it would and took another four years.

I also had, I got married in grad school. I had a baby in grad school.

Um, so my daughter was, uh,

three when I graduated from grad school.

So I was a little burnt out at the end of grad school.

And that was also a part of that major shift in what I was doing. Um,

and my postdoc advisor,

my grad school advisor and my postdoc advisor were very different, um,

kind of personalities. And so that helped, I think, too. Um,

but I realized at the end of those two years that my heart was not in, um,

being a pi I did not wanna have to write grants all the time.

I did not wanna have,

I did not have this burning desire to solve a specific problem. Um,

and when I finished my postdoc, I was pregnant with my second child.

So I decided to take a little break, have a baby,

actually stay home with that baby for a bit. And that was, um,

2008. And I don't know if you remember what was happening then,

but there was this big recession that happened. And so, um,

I ended up staying out of the lab for two years. Um,

I was teaching at like the community college level.

I taught chemistry for a while. Um,

and then my postdoc advisor at the time, after I left her lab,

she became part of the leadership. I did my postdoc here as well. Um,

she became part of the leadership of the cancer center and she called me one day

and said, the flow cytometry lab is hiring a person.

I think it needs to be a PhD. I think it should be, you contact this person.

And so I did. And um, I had, you know, the person,

my technician, my,

the manager of our flow lab is the person who taught me how to do flow.

Like he was the person who trained me and we always had a really good working

relationship. Um, so it was kind of this weird,

you know,

I think everybody who fall who comes into cores kind of falls into it a little

bit. So I got into it and it just was the perfect fit for me.

'cause it allowed me to be part of the science and hands-on and really

contributing. But I don't have to write grants. I mean,

I say that because I'm currently writing a grant,

but I don't have to write them all the time for my livelihood.

So it definitely was the right, the right move. But it,

I got there kind of in a weird way.

I, I've gotta ask now, what is the grant for? Is it for equipment? Yeah.

Mm-Hmm.

Um, what can I ask what you're bidding for?

Um, trying to get a, uh, spatial biology type system.

So we're looking at multiplexed, um, imaging.

So we're actually looking at a canopy bio, um, cell scape.

But yeah, so I'm writing a grant right now for an, for a piece of equipment.

Hey, I'm not, I've done it. This will be my second.

I didn't get the first one funded, so we'll see. You know,

So I, I'm good know. So you apply for a whole new technology. So we,

we've got nanostream, we've got the DSP gmx. MM-Hmm mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. Look at that.

Ah, realize, and we got options as well,

relatively not easy,

relatively easier to write grants to get new fancy

equipment.

But how do you replace your workhorse equipment to just get

'em back up to the latest generation? Not that it does massively more,

but just to replace it.

Yeah. Um, we write a grant and it fails,

and then we beg for money from our department or our, from, from our school.

So I'm fortunate that the cancer center, because it's got,

so the way in the US that works is it's a, it's a major center grant, so,

you know, $50 million grant. Um,

but those cancer center support grants are, um,

predominantly they support instrumentation, core facilities,

that kind of infrastructure to help support the research.

So we're very fortunate that our cancer center is really supportive of cores

and they, um, help us replace equipment a lot. Um,

we get some funding from the university too,

but the cancer center really is the ones,

because even though we're a big core,

we don't have like a big user base. And so we're not,

none of our instruments are at a hundred percent usage.

So it's hard to write a grant for that.

Okay. So, so now my next question, this is a geeky question, I'll,

I'll get back onto more general questions in a minute.

What is the oldest microscope or cytometry you have at the moment?

I think you're asking, because you know the answer to this.

So I finally got my boss, um,

within the last six months to decommission our ZES four 10

LSM

Lsm.

4 10, 4 10, 4 10

That,

That predate. It

Wasn't

Me, I think.

So we had a, um,

vantage until about 20 2009 or

so. But yeah, so I mean, we had the vantage for about 25 years. Um,

yeah, the four 10, and nobody was using the four 10.

I think there was some sentimental attachment to the four 10,

and he liked to use it for training,

But it was solid. Well,

It was, and it still worked. Um,

and it was a really easy way to show people,

like you could manually adjust the pinhole and you could really show them how

the confocal worked versus, you know, all, everything being digital.

But our oldest working microscope,

it's, it's probably the LSM five 10, um,

that is actually still in use. Um, but we also have a, um,

a, like a SP five, and they're probably in the same timeframe,

those two. So

I do, you know, I actually dreamt to a of an SP one last night.

I've never had an SP one. I've never touched,

I don't think I even touched an SP one.

It probably wasn't called an SP one, was it?

I dunno. It's a really weird dream. It was, it was just like, oh, anyway.

Totally different.

Sounds a little more like a nightmare. But

You, you did, you said you took some time off, uh,

especially around the time of your second child. Yes.

So you sent me a picture of your children.

Did, so that's, that's my daughter Grace on the left,

and my son Clay on the right.

And that picture is a little out of date because Clay has now outgrown his

sister. Um, it, yes.

And so he's 14 and she is going to be 20 soon. And, um, yeah.

And, uh, that is his cat Hazel,

who he loves dearly and they are best friends and Hazel hates Grace.

So, um, you'll see that ha that Grace has a, uh,

spray bottle pointed at Hazel in this lovely Christmas picture in front of

the tree. And he had no clue she was doing that. And he saw the picture later,

he's like, Hey. But yeah, she and the cat have a definite hate,

hate kind of relationship.

How do they get on your, not the cat and your daughter?

My children, for the most part, there's a pretty big, you know,

age difference that that five and a half years between them was grad school and

postdoc. Um, so they get on pretty well.

And how did you, because then obviously that was, I think you said 2008 mm-Hmm.

How did you find coming back to work and balancing work and having your children

and how, how did you manage all that?

Yeah, I mean, it's hard. And at the time we didn't have any, like,

family close by. Our closest family was two and a half hours away. So, you know,

my husband and I had to kind of figure out how to manage that daycare friends.

Um,

and I think the core was a good fit for that because I'm able to shut off at

five o'clock and go home and be a mom. And then I come back at nine and I'm,

you know, in the core. And, you know, my daughter,

my daughter was in the lab by the time, I mean,

from the time she was basically born. Um, she's a biology major now,

so in college. But yeah, so they, I I,

yeah, I don't know. I mean,

I guess that we just built a pretty good support system around us and that made

it work.

Tell me that you can still go home at five o'clock and clock off.

I do.

Wow.

Yeah, I actually, um, and people look at me weird when I say this,

and I say it all the time at conferences,

especially when I'm on panels about work-life balance.

I do not get my email to my phone, period.

My work email does not come to my phone. I will check it between nine to five.

Nope, I don't get it. Very few people have my cell number.

And if I give it out, it is like, with the threat of bodily harm,

if they share it, like I just, I don't, I shut it off. And,

um, I mean,

it's a little harder now that I'm doing a lot more volunteering stuff with ISAC

and, you know, ASCP and those kind of things. Um,

but I choose when I do it and I try to shut off when I'm at home.

I,

I don't think the fact that I dreamt of an SP one last night probably suggests I

don't shut off. Quite frankly.

I dreamt about the grant last night, but, um, I didn't work on it.

I do try and really try and compartmentalize where I can.

So you, so you also mentioned your more voluntary side to the job as well.

Mm-Hmm. So your Isaac treasurer? Yes. Yeah.

So how much money you got?

How much money do I have? None.

And there's no room in the budget for whatever it is you want.

That is my standard answer coming in the next couple of weeks when we're at

Cyto. I'm sorry, there's no room in the budget for that. Um,

but if you'd like to make a donation, here's a QR code.

Seriously, what does the Isaac Treasurer actually do? Yeah,

I work with the executive director to manage, to figure out the budget,

to set the budget, to watch the budget, to manage the budget. We have a, um,

finance committee that oversees as well and kind of looks at the budget and the

monthly reports every, you know, with,

with real details so that we can make recommendations to the council.

'cause the council has to see everything. Um,

so that's why we have all the committees that really dig into the nitty gritty.

So I do that. I do some, um,

contract like look overs just 'cause I don't sign the contracts.

That's executive director job. But we look at those just to say, you know,

are we making sure we're covering the society? And it's, um, and it's being,

you know, good fiduciaries of the money. And then, um, right now, um,

man is part of the planning for the president's reception that has now been, um,

changed over to a donations, um, activity. So, uh,

that's been, we've been planning for that and setting that up. So yeah,

that's the main part of it. And then I sit on the executive committee.

I, I've donated. I'm there. Good.

Me too. No, it's going really well and I'm, I'm really pleased. Um,

it's gonna be a really fun night and there's still some tickets available. Um,

but yeah, it's, it's done exactly what,

and I have to give Rachel full credit for that because that was her idea.

And I think it was brilliant to open up that reception that had been seen as

kind of this elitist club invite only and really open it up to the membership

and let everybody enjoy it. And to then benefit our civic missions. Um,

the donations go for instruments for science, um,

our cyto youth program and the, um, live education. So it's,

it's really kind of the outreach arms of the society that are benefiting

When it was a closed shop. Mm-Hmm. Food was amazing.

It was, wasn't it? It was really good. It's going, it's,

it's going to be heavier hor d'oeuvres now, but there'll be live entertainment.

It'll be a lot of fun.

Live entertainment.

Yes. It's a secret. I can't share. It's a surprise. You have to,

you have to buy a ticket to be there.

Just for anyone that doesn't know what Isaac is,

can you just in a sentence say what Isaac is?

Yeah. So ISAC is the International Society for Advancement of Cytometry.

But essentially it's,

I like to think of it as the broad research flow cytometry community because

there is the International Society for Clinical Cytometry, ICCS,

and we're very good partners with them. But, um,

really it's that community of people who either are building or

using or testing, um,

cytometers and cytometry like equipment.

And that's not the only society you're involved with. You're also part of gly?

I'm, I'm on the board for gly Great Lakes International Imaging and Cytometry

Association.

Yeah. I've, look, I'm in the UK and I've heard

We have really good parties. That's why everybody's heard about the Kka party.

We have a lot of fun.

Do they have an annual meeting? Do they do other events? Do they do courses?

Yeah.

What Mostly it's the, the, it's just the animal annual meeting. Um,

and so anything, so our catchment area is any place that touches a great lake.

Um, so here in the US we've got the Great Lakes,

Michigan touches four of the five Great Lakes. Um,

but anything that's like within that Great Lakes basin. Um,

though we do have some people come over from Nebraska too. 'cause we were,

for a long time, we were their closest society. Um, yeah.

Why, why, why you, you've got Isaac Mm-Hmm.

You've got all networking and community options. You've got Yes. You know,

the conferences, the training, then you've got glca and that's more meetings.

Well, so gly, CKA I like to think of as the,

because it's regional and it's smaller,

you get more of that your local network. So isac,

I have that international network,

gly Cka is more affordable for people to go to. And it's just a short, like,

two day meeting.

So those of us in the Midwest can all come together and it's an easy place to

take your technicians and your other staff and, you know,

for real and get really good content. Um, and,

but also be more with the people kind of in your area that you're gonna maybe

interact with more.

So what would you say the importance of networking was?

Oh, I think it's everything. Um, this is a really small,

like cytometry is kind of a small community and, um,

a very supportive one, which I like. Um, but I just,

the other day I was writing on this grant and I had some questions about,

um, Hyperion and I texted Caroline Rowe over at Vanderbilt and said, Hey,

can you answer three quick questions for me? And she did. And I was like, great,

thanks. You know, it's those kinds of easy interactions.

And then when I'm having something that is problematic,

because we're the only facility in the area, you've, you've me,

university of Michigan is 40 miles away, so I'm talk to Dave Adams all the time,

but you know, when we're dealing with things, if he hasn't had experience,

I can go to that wider community and ask. So that's huge for me.

And just disdain just on the networking and community side. So,

so this picture lots of famous

Yes, that is, that was a, um, that was a Philly in Cito last year.

That is like the emerging leaders group. There's a lot of us now.

I was in the second class, so I'm no longer in the emerging leader, you know,

category.

But I was in the second class of emerging leaders and we all still keep in

touch. We have a group at, um,

WhatsApp and ask each other questions all the time.

And it's been a really great community to kind of help build and be a part of.

That was right after some chocolate tasting.

So again, so you've got the networking, uh, the sort of the education side,

but it's, it's that network as well. Education, going

ask people. Mm-Hmm. Simply just got a problem. Yeah.

These changing subjects. Totally. I'm looking in your background. Yes.

So actually those listening cannot see your background, but I can see ao

You can see a what

AO

Bird.

You don't what type of bird it's, do

You? Nope. No, I don't. That's a nature Conservancy calendar. I apolo,

I'm not a birder. I'm not that old yet.

You don't even know what bird you have.

No, I don't. It's lovely. It's, um,

feeding a baby some sort of insect.

So I take your point. You said you were a a, a chemist, not a biochemist.

And I think you have just taken the bio outta your chemistry.

No, I'm a biochem and, and I laugh because I do so much more biology now.

I barely ever do think about chemistry.

So when I get to ha like solve a problem using chemistry, it's like, oh, hey,

I do still remember it. But to that point,

my husband and I are both chemists and my daughter is not doing well in her

chemistry process since she hates chemistry. She's like,

I just have to get through it to get to my biology degree.

I never wanna do this again. Um, yeah.

I still can't believe you still calling yourself a chemist when you're a

biochemist? I've never,

I'm a chemi a biochemist. I know,

but I think it's because my degrees all came out of chemistry departments and I

was always doing all the organic and inorganic and, you know,

PE chem and you know,

it's the hardcore chemistry degrees that just happened to also have all the

biochemistry on top of it.

Yeah. We had a chemistry and a biology departments. They were separate. Mm-Hmm.

And the, but the biochemistry were based the, we,

most of the wet labs were based in, in chemistry. Mm-Hmm.

So we were more chemistry heavy, but we did some biology, but Mm-Hmm.

Biochemistry. By the third year we dissociated from those inorganic studies.

Obviously you could dissociate yourself quite so well from some of your organic

folks.

No, well, and I, um,

went to a really small college for undergrad and so we all were just always

integrated into all the classes together. And I actually took like,

advanced instrumentation classes in undergrad,

never thinking that this would be my career path. But yeah.

So next question. Yes.

Uh,

I'm not gonna ask how old you're,

I'm 46. I don't mind sharing that.

Well, that's pretty swift, wasn't it? Okay. When's your birthday?

We just gotta check when this goes live out. It's on air. Oh, it's

In August, so yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. My might be closed

And what day, I'll just get loads of

This thing's on the internet. I'm not gonna share that much detail.

And, and what's your address? And, uh, consist with last three digits on the,

yeah, last,

Last four digits. My social security number. No, thank you.

So over that time, what has been your biggest challenge at work to date?

What's difficult period? Challenging. Mm,

That's a really interesting question. Um, honestly,

I think it's probably grad school. You know,

grad school was a struggle for me mostly because I, I was,

I, I flailed a lot in grad school, you know,

I kind of went to grad school 'cause that's what you do.

And then I wasn't sure what I was doing. And I had a, um,

my advisor was very much of the, um, you'll figure it out. Go,

go figure it out on your own kind of, um, teaching process.

And I definitely probably should have gotten an advisor that was more of a let's

figure it out together. Um, yeah. And let me help guide you.

And so I think I flailed a lot in grad school, so that was,

there was a period of time when I thought, am I,

do I need to be a scientist anymore? Like, is this the right path for me?

So thankfully I, I got through the fog.

Yeah. That's really, that's really cool message actually. Mm-Hmm. That,

you know, you're struggling. It wasn't necessarily all you at the time.

Yeah. And then you did your PhD, you do the postdoc,

you realize you didn't wanna go into the lecturing. Mm-Hmm.

And now who you are in a job that you clearly love.

Yeah, I do enjoy it. You're passionate

About and and excel at?

I think so. I think I excel at it. It's hard to say that you're,

you know that about yourself, I guess. But yeah, I think I do it pretty well.

Are

You associate professor though?

I'm assistant professor of research. Yeah. Professor of research. It's a little,

it's it's definitely a different, um, pathway in the US versus the uk, but Yes.

Sounds that's pretty cool, isn't it?

Yeah. Yeah. And it's because we don't have, like a lot of places,

we don't have a real defin well-defined career path for core personnel,

something I'm working on. Um,

but you kind of have to work through that from the top down and in while you're

in it.

So it took 12 years to be able to convince them to finally put me into a faculty

track. Um,

'cause I was research staff and when I was promoted to research science,

so I started out as research associate and then I went to research scientist

and, um, which is again, a really vague name,

but a but I was told that it was sub junior faculty faculty. I was like,

what is sub junior faculty?

That's the most ridiculous description I've ever heard in my life. Um,

so now I am on the research track.

So I'm a research assistant professor because we have a couple of different

tracks.

You said you were working on a, uh, what were the words you used?

You're working on that career path and looking the best way.

And I think this is said Isaac, but uh,

look at what the lmm like microscopy community do. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

So there's Phil, uh, Phil Berger.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I agree. They've done great over at Northwestern now,

and it's, it's more here at our institution. Um, and it's something,

so it's, so Wayne State is unique. I mean, we are in Michigan, we're in Detroit.

Um, and so we have unions. We,

I mean the university has a lot of unions. So there's a faculty union, um,

there's a graduate student union. There's, you know,

administrative unions. There's not a union for the research staff.

Um, and so I think they kind of fall into this weird in-between phase.

And so there's really just two classif or three classifications.

Research assistant research associate research scientist. Research assistant is,

if you have a bachelor's or a master's, you will always be a research assistant.

It doesn't matter how long you've been there. If you have a PhD,

you become a research associate or an md and then you,

you can move from there to research scientist. Um,

but there's no clear like delineation. So we have, you know, my technician,

like I said, he trained me. He's worked for the, you know,

in some form in a core facility since the nineties. And he's,

his classification is still research assistant. It has never changed.

And that's something that I'm trying to work with our VP with and start to

really consider other pathways,

like some defined steps in those pathways.

Yeah. So I'm, the UK is pretty, pretty good. Mm-Hmm.

I've gotta say about this area. I'm getting better. So I, I,

and York has always been exceptionally good and I,

I can't talk highly enough of York, but it's not,

that's not the same at every university across the country. Yeah.

Liverpool are doing great stuff in this area. Uh, not, and Warwick, Birmingham,

uh, through that region, Newcastle with Andy Philby. Mm-Hmm.

Who's professorship now, which is

Awesome. Yeah, I know. Which is awesome.

Uh, you know,

so the UK is there and I think these communities coming together

Mm-Hmm. And demonstrating these career paths, the value, the value of these.

And yeah, maybe that's the big thing, the value of our posts Mm-Hmm.

And now much more appreciated and understood than they were

15, 20 years ago.

Yeah.

And I've been making a concerted effort to start really referring to cores as

part of the research infrastructure of the university.

Because I think when you start talking about it as the research infrastructure,

it changes the, the conversation. 'cause when we think, of course,

as just technicians, you know, that,

that then you can set 'em aside and it's like, but we're,

we're not just technicians and we have a much different skillset than a

technician who works in a PI's lab. Um,

and so really kind of making it more part of that reef research infrastructure,

I think helps.

It's, I and, and this is what we have to appreciate Mm-Hmm.

If you're in a core facility, it, it's, we're very niche. Yes. You know,

and we actually, we form between technical roles Mm-Hmm.

We form between academic roles, you know, we are half academic, half technical.

We are service driven. We have applied academic mindsets. Yes.

And that's to be most successful. And that's how you deliver and advance. Yes.

And of course, it's on a scale of a university, there's, you know,

a handful. Mm-Hmm. We, yeah. And,

and we have to appreciate they can't have everything for every niche type

because then it gets fragmented.

Right.

But again, because these are now being set aside globally,

there's a lot of us Mm-Hmm.

Oh yeah. Yeah. And

That's what we have to go to our universities using places like Isaac, Walmarts,

CTLs, ABRF,

Arf. Mm-Hmm. I leave for that tomorrow.

Yeah. We can put those things together.

Exactly.

I tell you what here, you're, this is our roles.

This is what is now being recommended at institutional levels.

Yeah. And we have a, Yeah, we have a new vp. Well,

he's an interim VP for research. I, I hope he stays. Um,

but because I like him a lot,

and I think he is thinking in more of that kind of thought, that mindset. Um,

I think Johnny Moore described it best when she was describing it to me,

is that she finally was able to convince her HR by comparing the

core staff to the IT personnel at the university. They're very specialized,

highly technical, and they have a defined structure of, you know, advancement.

And so why can't we just duplicate that and make it more core minded and what

the know instrument,

but the skill sets and the the ways that we kind of advance and stuff is,

is pretty similar. So, you know,

why can't we do those comparisons if nothing else? And it,

I think it's a good point to start the conversation at least.

And just, just going back, I think we mentioned Andy Philbin. Actually,

you did send a picture of Andy. I did. This is, it's

One of my favorite photos of us. So, um,

the sign that we are pointing to, so for those of you listening,

I'm on the right and Andy is on the left in the picture. And there, it's,

it's a sign for the restrooms and it has an arrow that says men to the left,

because women are always right. And, uh, yeah.

I think that was in Prague at Cyto. Yeah.

Annie and I have been friends for a long time. Yeah.

That's false information.

Uh, no, it's not.

No, you're right. We

May let you think you're right on occasion. But,

And on that, I, I, I actually haven't seen who's in this picture. Yes.

So that's another one of my favorite cyto pictures. So this was in, um,

Philadelphia. And I love that everyone in this picture indulged me.

So behind us, that window that you can't see anything in it is the Liberty Bell.

And so all the people on the right are from Great Britain,

and all the people on the left are from the us.

And I did this because my father has gotten really, really into like,

genealogy as you do when you retire, I guess.

And discovered that my fourth great-grandfather fought under Washington in the

Revolutionary War.

So I got all of the Britts to be on the one side in the US to be on the other in

front of the Liberty Bell for my dad.

Yeah. Well, I can see we've got Karen Hog there. Yeah. You're gonna,

Well, I mean history. We may not look,

we may look a little, uh, scrappy, but it worked in our favor,

I guess.

Oh, yes. It's, it's good. See the faces there, awesome force. Yes.

She's,

I'm having it on my side while I've got it on my side, which is good. Yes.

So I, I've got some, uh, quick fire questions for you. Okay.

What's your favorite color?

Mm. Teal

Teal. Still no one has had flaw or electro Four. Eight. Eight.

Everyone goes genuine color.

Sorry.

See, you could tell a truth. Face cytometry.

I've not met a true flow cytometry or microscopy that actually think and not

name it.

I saw a TV show though that did that somewhere in the 4 66 to,

and then I was like, oh, that's this color. I mean, I knew what it was,

but it's not how I think about describing it to the general public

Somewhere on the spectrum. Yeah. That, that, that small part of it.

Exactly.

Four 80, uh, te teal's an obscure that's a bit of a niche color,

isn't it, teal?

It's, I know, but it tends, it's like my signature color. I don't, I,

I'm wearing like royal blue today,

but I have so many clothes and teals so I've decided that. Yeah, no,

I think this is my favorite color.

Okay. Are you an early bird or night owl?

Early bird, definitely.

What time do you normally wake?

Oh, I'm usually up in the six o'clock range. I mean, I'm at like,

super early bird. I mean, well now that I'm a little more middle age,

I tend to wake up around four and then try to slowly fall back asleep for a bit.

But, um, yeah, no, but,

but like 10 o'clock, I'm like, I'm out. Bye. Bed

PC or Mac

Pc? I have an Android phone. What's that?

McDonald's or Burger King.

Oh, neither Wendy's. You've

Got two children. Really? You don't go to my

Yeah. I mean, if I can avoid it. No,

we tend to go to Wendy's instead

Because that's so much better.

It's really not.

No,

My son discovered Culver's, which I'm not even sure you'd be familiar with.

And so he'd request that both of my children would prefer to do Subway or go get

sushi. So

My children are really big fans of Subway.

Yeah. I don't get it. I mean, it's just a lot of bread, but whatever.

It's at least a little healthier than McDonald's.

I'm not even sure how, how to ask what I actually want in that place. Right.

Or how much the price that comes out. Seems,

seems to be utterly random at the end. It's like, how do they come to that much?

It's

Like, yeah, I don't, yeah. I don't know. I,

Anyway,

I try to avoid fast food. But

What is your favorite food?

Oh, my mother's lasagna and her cheesecake. But yeah.

And it and, and this is your No. That look like I'm your mother.

I'm not your mother.

Yes. So I'm the left is my daughter and my, my mother in the middle and myself.

You can tell we're related. It's in the nose. Um, yeah, we went.

So because of Covid,

my daughter was supposed to go on like a school trip to New York when she was in

high school, but it got canceled. So this past summer,

my mom and I took her to New York City for the first time.

So it was a lot of fun. It was a really good trip.

So that's your favorite food? Mm-Hmm. What is your food nightmare if you went,

if you were taken out on, so another society's president's evening. Mm-Hmm.

Because obviously you can't do that now with the Isaac, right? Mm-Hmm.

And you don't have a choice in what you're fed.

You just put down in front of what would be the nightmare dish put down in front

of you?

Uh, meatloaf and lima beans.

Mm-Hmm.

That silence is, I'm trying to work out why, why?

Lima beans are just gross. My mom used to make 'em when I was little.

I hated them up.

The house was

Cooking. I most of it. Yeah. I don't like peas, but I,

I can at least swallow peas whole.

My family still makes fun of me because my children love peas. I hate peas,

but I eat them. I just swallow them whole.

My dad still makes fun of me for that. But, um,

Golly, don't sneeze when you swallow something then.

But lima beans are just like the worst. And then, um, meatloaf,

I just had a really bad, like,

stomach virus and the last thing I had eaten when I was a kid and the last thing

I'd eaten was meatloaf. And I've never been able to eat it since. So,

Who cooks at home?

I do all the time. Who

Washes up at, who washes up at home?

My children if I, you know, make them, but it tends to be me as well.

I take on way too much at home.

And what is your signature dish?

Oh, my signature dish. Oh, that's a good question. Um,

well, I make tacos a lot, but I think my family would say their favorite is, um,

black olive pasta.

Okay. And coffee or tea?

Coffee. I do love a good cup of tea,

but I have to have at least some coffee every morning. It is still early here.

You are going long coffee though, aren't you?

Not sure. Mine is still hot and yeah, it's got milk in it or cream in it too.

I don't do black.

Yeah. None of that enough. Beer or wine?

Wine.

White,

Red,

Chocolate or cheese?

Ooh, chocolate

Milk or dark?

Um, milk. I say that because I feel like people judge me, but

It's American chocolate. I, I, I think,

I mean, I prefer British chocolate, like milk chocolate,

American milk chocolate is pretty poor. That picture from,

of all the emerging leaders we had done a, um, or,

or Rachel Walker organized a chocolate tasting.

She had everyone bring like the Cadbury's milk bar from their country.

And it was surprising how different they all tasted. Um,

even between like the Irish one and the British one or, or the English one. And,

you know, um, I have another picture somewhere of, um,

some of the, um, the leader to ship development groups. One was from um,

Sweden and the other was from Belgium. And they're both looking at it like,

why are we doing this? They're tasting it, going,

this is the worst thing we've ever tasted in our lives. Or Yeah,

Switzerland in Belgium. Belgium. But yeah, they were both very like,

this is gross making faces, but

I I, the next, typically the next quick five question is TV or book.

Okay. I can't, I can't believe you've just got, oh, I dunno. TV or book.

And you

Said, I mean, honestly, when I'm tired, yes.

When I'm tired it tends to be a tv. But I do love books. Yeah.

The picture you have is, those are most of my book club.

Two of the girls are missing. But that's my, that's my support group. My,

my at home best friends. Yeah.

We call ourselves JKL Squared because we have two

Lisas, two Katies a Janet and a Jessica. JKL squared.

We call ourselves a book club.

My husband calls us a drinking and gossiping club, but we always read a book.

Us. Well, usually

I, I, I like the name Synergy. Mm-Hmm. What, what sort of genre do you read?

Um, I like fiction. I like historical fiction especially.

But fiction is definitely my, my favorite though. Right? Like,

the last couple books I've read have actually been memoirs. So, well,

I, it depends on who it is. It could still be fictional

Fiction. True. So the, um,

the one I finished recently was Ja, was, uh, Dave Grohl. That was a,

that was a fun memoir. Um, and I'm finishing up li well,

right now I'm listening to, uh, Michelle Obama. Um, becoming,

now that I've been riding the bus more to work. And so, um,

I have a lot more time to be able to read during the day 'cause it's almost an

hour bus ride, so Yeah. For 16 miles. But

I, I don't envy that journey through. You said you watch TV as well. Mm-Hmm.

What is your, what is the trash TV that you use to turn to to, to,

Oh yeah. When I'm just zoning out, I watch crime shows. I watch, um,

CSI or NCIS, those kind of,

I know they're still science kind of based

Oh, go, come off it. I know

They're totally not, they're totally not.

I love how they like come up with ADNA profile in like 10 seconds, but Yeah.

Did what, what a not looked down a light microscope at,

and you see an electron microscope image.

Oh, I know the,

he threw this on the electron microscope and it came back to this. And I'm like,

when did you do that Two weeks ago? Like,

you did not get that image within a minute and a half.

Uh, just some of the inaccuracies. They could just Yeah. Tell about that.

Yeah.

Star Trek or Star Wars.

Oh, star Wars. But my husband is Star Trek.

Wow. Your husband's got much better taste. What is your,

what's your favorite film?

My favorite film? The Goonies. I dunno. The Goonies?

Yeah.

No, Goonies. Oh God.

I actually associate with you in times.

I've gotta question myself. And, uh, what's your favorite,

what's your favorite Christmas movie?

Oh, white Christmas. Hands down.

Classic Phil.

Absolutely. My daughter and I watch it every year.

It's not Christmas time until we watch White Christmas.

And uh, finally on the Quick Fires, what's your favorite music?

What do you like to listen to?

Mm. Pop? Yeah. Just, you know, whatever's playing on the radio kind of music.

Okay.

Although I'm really excited 'cause um, I'm a fan of Pink and my daughter,

just for my, as a very, very, very, very early birthday present,

bought us tickets to go see Pink when she comes to town this summer.

And I'm very excited about it. Very cool. I'm super excited.

And I can imagine that would be a very good stage act. Yeah.

I've, I've, I've got a pretty good kid that she thought of it.

Yeah. Oh, come on. That's because she wants to go. Yeah.

Oh yeah. No, I've been playing,

she's been listening to Pink since she was a baby,

because I've been playing it that long. So yeah, that's definitely,

we have a lot of that in common.

I've asked about challenging times Mm-Hmm. Uh,

in your career and you went back to your grad days. Mm-Hmm.

What most fun time in your career? When has that been?

Honestly, it's usually when I'm at a conference

With English chocolate and the red wine and the

plentiful coffee. Yeah. Go on. Yeah.

It's,

it's when I can be around other scientists and like talk science and

not feel like I'm, um, the weirdo in the crew, you know?

'cause in my regular life, like I have friends who are, you know,

who have science backgrounds of my JKL Squared. You know,

there's a veterinarian, there's an an engineer. Um,

and then we've got like a speech language pathologist and a realtor, you know,

so we're, you know, very diverse.

And so I try not to geek out too much in my everyday life, but, um,

I do like when I can get around other scientists that have the same

language and get excited about the same things.

I have a an interesting question actually. So, so you love conferences and,

and you know, conferences when you start out going to conferences, you know,

those evenings going to the very early hours and then Mm-Hmm.

The early morning and then the morning. Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.

But the conversations can be intensely about work, really theoretical stuff,

concept.

Oh yeah.

I know. As time's gone on,

you get to know people better and actually the conversations become more

personal. Mm-Hmm. And not so deep into the science. Mm-Hmm. And then,

I dunno,

I think the value of some of the meetings drops a bit because it's not the

scientific, you know, the lectures are great. Mm-Hmm.

Teachers workshops are great, but it's those evenings when you're really Mm-Hmm.

Just can talk unadulterated about work without fear of saying Yeah. You know,

you can say conceptually completely stupid, completely wrong. Mm-Hmm.

You can just say and then Correct. You

Don't have to worry about the politics that you're institution. Yeah.

Do you find that those conversations are now becoming more and more personal?

Or how is this, how is that and not so much about that,

that high-end theoretical chats.

Yes. But I am, I'm also very, um,

or I try to be very conscious of that.

And I do love spending time with my longtime friends in the field,

but I also try to make new connections. And I'm at the point in my career and I,

it hit me, well, I think it was earlier this year, maybe last year,

but I realize that now I'm the person that people are like, oh,

I wanna talk to her or ask her questions.

So I try to be very conscious about that at meetings and really make new

contacts and meet new people and talk about science still with new people or com

I mean, it tends to be a little more complaining about our p our users. But, um,

you know, I try to really make that, what's that?

But you'll still learn tact of how to manage those sorts of scenarios. Yeah.

So that's still work related as well. Yeah.

So I tend to like go to the events with friends so that we're together and we

can talk about the personal stuff too and catch up.

But then I try to meet new people when I'm there and really try to,

to expand a little. Um, so yeah, I, I try to manage that.

I don't know if it's fully conscious every time,

but I do like to meet new people and make new connections.

Yeah. I I think that's always the case of confidence.

Poster sessions are quite good for that as well. Mm-Hmm.

Yeah,

Definitely. And then you can, because you, you, you've got that connection then,

so to talk about the

Yes. Yes. Well, and after and after the, the, the heavy scientific talks too,

especially the parallels and those,

because you can really kind of afterwards ask more and talk more about the

really deep stuff that was covered too.

Yeah. I, I went out to, actually, it was, it was an application specialist with,

went out for dinner, you know, he, he was in town. I thought we,

he was here for a while, so I thought we should do something.

So I went out and I, I dunno the person that well Mm-Hmm.

And that evening was awesome. Mm-Hmm. Because we, we had the chit about,

you know Mm-Hmm. Stuff like that. A little bit.

Really high end microscopy stuff. Yeah, yeah.

Right at the boundaries of the theoretical side. And it was so good.

Mm-Hmm. And it's like, oh my goodness. Yeah. Conferences used to be like that,

but of course, I think maybe for some of the junior members it still is.

It is. Yeah. Well, and I, like I said,

you have to really be careful that you don't just hang out with the people that

you know and you like, and that you've gotten along with over the years. Yeah.

Um,

It's where you get the buzz. It's where you get the excitement,

it's where the new ideas Mm-Hmm. Come from. Yeah.

Yeah. And I, um, so I haven't been to ABRF in a long time, and I'm going,

I leave, I fly out tomorrow. Um,

and so I'm excited because it is a different group of people, you know,

'cause I've been going to flow meetings for so long that it's the same,

you know,

it's a small community and so you see the same people everywhere you go.

But ABRF is all core people, but all different cores.

And so it gives you a chance to kind of talk to people in different realms and

hear how they do things and decide, you know,

if that might work better than what you're doing. So I do enjoy that.

I'm looking forward to it. I mean,

I'm stressed because I'm still working on a grant, but

I am looking forward to that

Piece. Hey, you've got a deadline? Yeah, I do. Maybe just,

I have to have a deadline. Maybe don't do any, uh, manuscript writing. Go. Yeah.

What's your favorite publication?

A

What you mean?

That's, what do you I'm sorry. I guess I don't understand the question.

What, what is your favorite publication that you've published? Co-authored?

Oh, that I've co-authored. Um, oh,

that's a really good question. So I,

I'm gonna turn it a little and say the one that was the most surprising.

So when I was a postdoc, um, we published a paper about, um,

we were working on, um, DNA Vaccines for Cancer.

Um, and we did, um,

a publication that showed that certain mouse cancer models were,

um, could be, you know, cured,

we could make them susceptible to treatment with our vaccine.

And a, it went into, um,

cancer research and the AACR decided to cancer

research, decided to make a press release about it.

And I'd never experienced that before.

And it went crazy because they essentially said researchers in the lab have

cured drug resistant cancer, which was not what we had done.

We had taken a, you know,

an obscure mouse model and a mouse tumor with a rat tumor and or, you know,

and made it so that yes, if it was cancer or ca chemotherapy resistant,

we could rescue the immune response. We had news,

um, contacting us from all over the world. They were coming into the, like,

they had to finally get the marketing team at the cancer center involved to,

to manage all of the news crews that were coming in. Um, it was crazy.

I was on the news like multiple times. We'd have camera crews coming in.

I'm in the, I'm in the hood trying to, you know,

process a spleen and they're like, can you do that slower? No, dude,

I can't do it slower. But it's, you know, it's a red liquid. Um, so that was,

I think the most, um,

it was the kind of the most surreal experience around a publication was dealing

with this like, major hype. Um, the Today Show did call,

but they then their scientist read it and they're like, no,

we cannot make this like,

as big as it's 'cause we have too big of a audience. And thank God.

'cause my boss was like, the,

the point where it stopped was when a news crew set up outside of the, um,

clinic downstairs and asked patients coming out of treatment,

what do you think about this new exciting, you know,

thing that's happening in the lab? And they asked, when can we get it?

And that's when my boss was like, Nope, we're done. This is,

we are not giving people false hope. Yeah.

For 20 years from this being able to be clinically relevant. So

Hope you just made your best manuscript with most publicity.

Sound like it's Tad story at the end. Yeah.

It was just this weird like, I guess a weird glimpse into, I mean,

how the news works, but just how that, you know, that those weird,

that that machine can kind of go overboard and then you realize, wait a minute,

time out. We can't give people, you know,

there's a difference between statistically significant and clinically relevant.

And you have to make sure that you walk that line appropriately.

I I I will just make one comment on your choice that it was the wrong answer,

because it's the one that you're gonna be publishing. There

You go.

The one that I'll eventually publish that we've been working on forever with

you, Pete.

No. Which has been the most challenging.

It's been so challenging.

It's not science. It's not, it's crazy.

It's so challenging to write this paper. Yes.

Jessica?

Yes.

I'm gonna take you way back now. Okay.

I'm gonna take you back further than this now.

Okay. So if you are listening to this, we, we are now about 50,

50 minutes. 53 minutes into it. You have to go just for this picture. 'cause I,

I take it this is your inorganic husband?

That is my husband Dwayne. Yes. But

Who's this to his, that's

Me. That is me. That was the night before we got married.

That was our rehearsal dinner. Yeah. I was 23, Pete.

I was a baby. I look at that now and I think,

why do my parents let me get married at that age?

My dad did try to talk me out of it. He thought I was,

I was 22.

Yeah, well it was technically, it was four days before my 23rd. Oh

My God. So this is,

That's more, yeah. That was then. This is now.

Awesome.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna take you back even further. I, I, okay. Just,

just 'cause I think if you'll be giggling right now,

I'm gonna leave this up while I ask this question. When you were,

when you were a young child. Yeah. What was the first career you want to do?

Maybe when you're 10 or 11?

Astronaut.

Astronaut.

Yeah. I definitely wanna be astronaut. I mean, come on. Sally Ride was my,

my hero. Oh my God. She was the most amazing person. And by the way,

her biography so good. Um, but yeah,

I wanted to be an astronaut. I wanted to go to Space camp. I wanted like,

space Camp was my favorite movie for a long time. Um, yeah.

And then the Challenger happened

That put you off?

Yeah. Yeah. I think that,

and then I realized that it wasn't quite what I wanted and then I saw it for a

while. I wanted to be a, um,

medical laboratory technician and like a medical lab scientist. Um,

and then I wanted to go to med school and be a doctor.

And then I realized I don't really like sick people. So

That answers the next questions. Okay. So my next question,

you got to where you're today. Mm-Hmm.

If you could do any job for a day or a week or a month,

what job would you like to sample? Just to try it.

That's really interesting. Ah,

I might go back to astronaut actually.

I think it'd be cool to be floating around in space.

I, I, I think blast off would just be too, I'm too risk averse now.

Oh, well you are kind of old. Yeah, no,

I think I could handle the, the blast off and the, all the, yeah,

I think I could. That would be fun. My son had an idea when,

when he was very little, um, that NASA should make, um, you know,

the Flat Stanley, um, book and where the kids,

so it's this children's book and the kids make these little paper, um,

cutouts of themselves and they put their face on it and then they like laminate

it and they send it in the mail to people.

And you take it around and you see how far around the world it can go.

And he had this idea that NASA should make stickers with little kids' faces and

put 'em on the, the spacesuits. So then they could be like astronauts too.

So a friend of mine who actually works for nasa,

I sent him an email and I'm like, uh, I think you need to do this.

Take it up the, take it up the line.

You can make patches with kids' faces all over the, the spacesuits.

You know, if you do, you,

you know what astronaut actually says if they take off,

first thing they say is oog followed by two GG.

Yeah.

That's ridiculous.

You're,

Yeah. But you won't forget it now, will you? No,

I won't, unfortunately.

Other hobbies, you've got the fun times at work.

You've got the difficult times at work. You clock off when you go home. Mm-Hmm.

And I, I presume you also like

I like to be outside. I like to hike.

You've got a retreat?

I do. So it's a thing in Michigan.

Everybody in Michigan has like a family cottage up north, so Okay.

I'm gonna teach you something new. So if you live in Michigan,

you have to know how to use your hand as a map because it,

for those of you outside of the us,

Michigan is at the top of the United States and it's the state surrounded by the

Great Lakes that looks like a mitten. So you use your hand, oops, sorry,

that's backwards. So you use your hands.

This is what the state of Michigan is shaped like.

So Detroit is down here and we have a cottage up here now Michigan

has two peninsulas,

so there's actually the upper peninsula and the lower peninsula. But,

so we have a cottage up about here that we go to. I, I call it a cottage.

It's a hunting cabin, but I like to dress it up and then you can,

you can go across the Mackinac Bridge and go up to the up.

And people in the southern part of Michigan have hunting cabins or co family

cottages.

They've been in their families for generations up in the northern part of

Michigan. 'cause we like to be outdoors. It's a great state for being outdoors.

So, um, yes,

my husband convinced me to get a hunting cabin in the upper part of the lower

peninsula a couple of years ago. And we go up there. My,

my husband and children are actually going up this evening. Um,

it's only about a three and a half hour drive.

So we can go on a weekend and go be outside. So I like to hike.

Uh, uh This is off grid as well, isn't it?

It's, yes. So we have, we have running water because, you know, we have a,

we have a, well, um, we have, um, we operate off of a generator,

either gas or battery powered. We have some solar panels, but yes, it is, um,

we have 36 acres of woodland and it abuts a,

the national forest. So there's the Huron National Forest, um,

that our property abuts. So we are literally in the middle of nowhere.

And my husband would move there tomorrow if he could.

And I will never live there full-time. But, um,

Yeah,

because I can imagine all the middle school children needing to be taught in the

middle of nowhere.

There are a couple of smaller schools. He, and when he,

so because he's a substitute teacher, he's like, he's not fully licensed yet.

He's working on that. But, um, so he's a long-term sub, but when he,

before he became the long-term sub that he is,

he would substitute just kind of anywhere and he would go off to the cabin for

a week and he'd just substitute teach, um, at the schools up there. So

yeah, it is, it is really in the middle of nowhere though.

Jessica, we're up to the hour, so I'm gonna ask one last question.

Okay.

Where do you see the next big step in place, cytometry? Ooh.

What would you like it to be? What would you like it to be? Mm-Hmm.

I mean, honestly, oh, it's such a, it's a tough one.

I think what we're trying to do with the multiplexing on tissue, I think is,

is gonna be really important. Um, there,

I think you're always gonna need to have flow. Absolutely.

And I think it's an amazing technology,

but we have to start thinking about where the cells are in the entire

microenvironment.

'cause there's so much of an interaction at the microenvironment level and

microscopy is great for that, but you have limits, you know,

in traditional confocal on how many things you can look at.

So I think that multiplexing on the tissue level is really where we're,

we're heading next.

I can't, I can't wait for the, uh, yeah.

Assist technology to become agnostic to the platform.

Mm mm-Hmm.

Just like cytometry.

It doesn't matter if you've got beman culture or Sony or B mm-Hmm. Whatever.

It's, it doesn't matter. You can buy the reagents and do your experiments. Yeah.

Not wait for that multiplexing to be agnostic.

Well, so that's what the system that we're looking at is one that it,

that uses commercially available antibodies that are fluorescently labeled.

So it is a little more agnostic. That's why we targeted it for our grant.

We'll see if it gets funded. But you know, for us, I think it'll work, um,

better than some of the other options out there. But yeah,

I think that is probably kind of the next step.

It'd be good to know. And on that note, Jessica, thank you very much.

Thanks everyone for listening to Flow Stars today. Uh, thanks Pete.

You've heard Karen and other people mention Johnny Moore, uh,

Rachel Ton Isaac, and there's lots of other podcasts on from flow stars,

just about, uh, from them and about those topics. I always say,

I was gonna say thank you Jessica, but I think I might say thank you.

ISAP Treasurer. Thank you Assistant professor. Thank you, member. Thank you.

Vice chair of ASCP. Thank you

Chair. I'm chair of the as Scps Optometry Exam Committee.

I know I do a little, I say a yes a few too many times. I think

Wife, mother of two, friend, author,

grant writer, Jessica.