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Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations between Dr.

Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of Flow Cytometry,

brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite-size bio.

Hi, today on Flow Stars. I'm joined by Peter Lopez from New York University,

and we discussed the benefit of being semi-retired.

Uh, well, one benefit there is I get to keep my, uh, academic titles,

so I still have my professor title. Yep. Um, and it's, um,

it's kind of a slow, you know,

a slow easing out of that role while I look at other

opportunities. Pizza. Uh, although if any restaurants wanna hire me, I'm,

I'd be happy to do a little side job, uh, make a great pizza. Uh, but, uh,

Actually, you say that, you actually sent me a picture of your people. Oops.

There's one.

And we also take a look at how flow cytometry is helped transform pathology.

Reon Willis had designed, uh, flow systems, uh,

that were, that were mimicking what we had learned,

uh, to observe mic under the microscope,

but to actually make measurements

All in this episode of Flow Stars.

Hi, I am Peter Oto from University of York, and today I'm Flow Stars.

I'm joined by Peter Lopez from New York University Grossman School of Medicine.

That's a mouthful. Peter, how are you today?

I'm doing well. And how are you, Peter?

Oh, no, I'm really good. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm,

I've known you for many years, but it's really great to actually,

probably to get you to know you better than I actually know you,

if that makes sense. 'cause when we were at work, conferences, meetings,

the conversations generally goes personal to lots of work, whereas actually,

here probably get to know a bit more about you. Uh, then I realize,

and actually the first thing before we started,

you mentioned you are semi-retired.

Yeah. Uh, this happened. Um, uh, well, uh, you know,

people, uh, say that, uh, to me with,

with kind of the same inflection in their voice with a little bit of a question

mark at the end. Uh, and, uh, I've been,

I've been at this for 46 years, and, um, it's, uh,

uh, it's been, you know, I've been thinking about this, you know,

the pandemic is one thing that I think factors into a lot of people's, you know,

career or life decisions now. Uh, and, um,

I thought that this was a great, uh, a good time. I'm, I'm,

I am officially in the us uh, retirement age. Uh, so,

um, I, I did a, um, kind of a,

a stage retirement. So at the moment, I'm, I'm semi-retired, uh,

that happened March 1st, 2023. And, um,

I stepped down from the director's role, uh, as the, uh, the, the, uh,

flow cytometry laboratory, uh, director. Uh, and I'm staying on board,

uh, for a day per week. Uh,

I kind of wanted to do that to, to, to, to keep, uh, well,

one benefit there is I get to keep my, uh, academic title.

So I still have my professor title. Yeah. Um, and it's, um, it,

it's kind of a slow, you know,

a slow easing out of that role while I look at other

opportunities. 'cause, you know, I, I, you know,

I didn't want to just cut it short and say I'm done. Uh, uh,

it's been great. Uh, and, and I'm, and I'm out out the pastor.

I've gotta say, this is, this is, I, for those listening, uh,

go flip to YouTube briefly,

because Peter looks super young and that is why it's

so nuts. But then just stupidly,

I did look at some background and you studied your first place cytometry

is 1977.

Yeah. Correct. Yeah.

That you, so that must have been the birth of flow cytometry at seven seven.

Well, um, I mean, things were, you know, things were already happening and,

you know, to be, uh, you know, to be, uh, straightforward here, uh,

we, my first job was in a lab at University of Rochester in, uh,

Rochester, New York,

where there was flow cytometry instrument development going on. And,

uh, that was something, uh, that, yeah, it was,

it was relatively new, you know, the stuff that was going on. I, you know, uh,

um, uh, you know, the, the first patents in,

in flow cytometry, it depends on, it depends. It depends on if you,

if you consider a culture count or a flow cytometer. And I do, because it's a,

it's a cell measuring device and it flow cells. Uh, and that patent was,

I think, around the time that, uh, what about when I was born? Uh,

it was when that patent came out, uh, by Wallace Coulter. Um,

or if you want to go to, you know, kind of the, the,

the more straightforward fluorescence based systems.

That was Wolfgang Good's patents, um, when it was at Fibe, before Partec.

And that was in, uh, in the 1969. So, yeah, it was kind of early on.

Uh, but, you know, you were hard pressed to find laboratories that had, um,

cell orders at that point. Um, although at University of Rochester, we had 'em,

uh, we had one, but that was not the group that I was, uh, working, uh, with.

I was working with Leon Willis, and, um, it was, uh, I mean,

they were, they were doing stuff that just got me so excited. Um,

you know, with my, with my background and the things that I had interests in,

uh, you know, I was, I was a young, I was, I was, I was a young man. Um,

and I was quite lucky, uh, because, um,

that job was, um, almost a recruitment. So I was, it was my first job.

And, and, uh, it was my, I didn't have a job in the field,

and yet Leon Willis came over to me and asked me if I wanted to work in his

group. And I was like, Hey, uh, that was kind of a dream for me. Uh,

and, um, and as they said, the rest is history. So,

What's your education background before 77? And what, what,

what did you just come out of before you took this role? Sure. This must

Yeah, sure. Your first

Job,

Right? Right. So, um,

Professional job, sort of career job. Maybe that's a better way of wording it.

Right,

Right, right, right. Yeah. 'cause my first job was, was,

was cooking in a restaurant, which I still do not in a restaurant. Uh,

although if any restaurants wanna hire me, I'm,

I'd be happy to do a little side job, uh, make a great pizza. Uh, but well,

Actually, you say that, you actually sent me a picture of your pizza. Oops.

Here's one. Yeah, that's, looks

Like I'm just a big giant pizza head.

You know, I might use that for my background for now on, for my Zoom calls.

I like, I like, I like the pizza. Hu Pete. It looks,

Works quite well. Yeah. But ro head just makes me sound,

but probably quite complexion sometimes. So, so go on. So your

First, yeah. Yeah. So my background was, you know, um, was really just,

just basic bi biology background. Um, uh, I,

uh, I got into a program, frankly, I, I,

I really had no idea what I was getting into, uh, to learn psychopathology,

uh, uh, in a, in a clinical setting. Um,

I honestly didn't know what I was getting into. Uh,

but I thought it sounded cool. Uh,

it involved microscopy and I already had interests in

optics, uh, in the other direction, uh, uh, telescope. So, so, you know,

looking at distant things rather than looking at small things. And, um,

um, I was, it's, you know, I'm, I, I was born in New York City, and,

you know, uh, new New Yorkers in New York City have a very, uh,

different worldview. I mean, everything for a New Yorker is New York,

and outside of New York is, who knows. Uh, I basically went to, uh,

went to Upstate Medical Center in Syracuse. I had no idea where I was going.

Uh, most people were showing up to the university with,

in a car, with family, so forth. I flew in with,

with a backpack and a guitar. 'cause I thought,

that's what you're supposed to have at college. Um, I mean, I did,

I did have other things coming. Eventually, stuff got moved from my, from my,

from my bedroom to, to my, to my dorm room. Um,

but I got involved in this, in, in this program,

which is basically studying alongside the medical students. Uh,

things like pathology, things like, um, uh, uh, uh,

medical technology, things of that nature. Uh, with the goal of, um,

learning how to do cytopathology, uh, with a license. So I, I,

I, I basically came out of this,

of this program with a clinical license where, uh, it was,

uh, all microscopy, uh, a hundred percent microscopy. I mean, we, we were,

uh, uh, with our eyes glued to the microscope,

probably five hours a day, learning how to look at, um,

uh, essentially pap smears, um, and to, to d you know,

to do a pre-screening of these things in order to, to screen out, you know,

potentially malignant cells. Go ahead.

Yeah. So, so I, I'm intrigued now. So you got into my microscopy,

which is where I started, and then I got into cytometry.

But I've kept microscopy in cytometry, but as far as I'm aware,

you kind of dropped a lot of the microscopy and went major in cytometry,

or did you keep some of your microscopy going alongside the cytometers?

Well, um, that's kind of where that first job came up, because, um,

you know, we were Des Leon Willis had designed, uh,

flow systems, uh, that were,

that were mimicking what we had learned, uh,

to observe mic under the microscope,

but to actually make measurements. So, you know, classic goal,

classic, uh, cytopathology in the early days was really kind of a subjective,

you know, you, you looked at a lot of different cell types.

You had learned how to describe these things, uh, in detail,

what you were seeing, the nuclear confirmation, the chromatin,

the, the size of these cells, you know, staining patterns and so forth. But the,

in the fifties and the sixties, um, um, you know,

pap Nikola came up with this early, early work,

but one of the pioneers was a man named, uh, Leopold Kos, KOSS.

Uh, he is actually in New York at, at, um, uh, initially, uh,

uh, he was at, oh, crap, Montefiore Hospital, which is part of Albert Einstein,

uh, in, in, in, in the Bronx. Um, and he wrote, you know,

he wrote the book on diagnostics, auto pathology. Um,

but there wasn't this kind of, um, um, metro part.

There wasn't this type of measurement really being, you know,

written down and, and studied. It was more of, uh, you know,

look at the patterns, look at these things, and that, and you could be very,

you could very reliably make these diagnosis. Um, at Rochester,

there was a guy named Stanley Patton, uh, also a, uh,

a famous cytopathologist. And he was the person I studied under.

What he wanted to do was to try to actually ma do

cytometry to actually make measurements and to see if certain cell types have

measurable characteristics. And this was just done visually.

This was not done with any kind of DNA staining, any kind of special stuff. Um,

and, um, and he, uh, it's pretty cool because he was ma you know,

this was in the sixties, and he was making cellular measurements. Um,

I mean, you could make a, you know, as you very well know,

you could very easily make a measurement on, you know, with a, on a microscope,

with a, with a, uh, with a stage micrometer and a, and a calibrated, uh,

you know, uh, um, eyepiece. Um,

he went a step further and started weighing stuff. So he would,

he would trace images of cells in nuclei. Yeah.

And he would start making weight.

He was making weight determinations by cutting these things out and putting them

on scales and stuff.

But he gathered enough information that served as the basis of this project. So,

um, so, so, I'm, I, I, I kind of went off off a little bit on the story.

You know, keeping the microscopy,

I think really played a very big role for me in flow cytometry. 'cause,

'cause I got into this, got into that part of the field,

knowing a bit about what we were actually looking at as the cells,

you know, uh, as things were going through the machine. So, um, you know, I,

I still will say this, you know, to any young per flow cytometrist or,

or people already in the field that a microscope is,

is your best friend in a flow cytometry laboratory,

and you really should have one. And you,

you should really become very comfortable with turning that thing on and using

it, because there, it's gonna get you out of many binds. Uh,

where, you know, just looking at dots on dots on a dot plot, you can say a lot,

but, you know, sometimes, you know, the picture's worth a thousand words.

So I kept, I, you know, I kept with it. And, and in fact, I did actually, um,

when I was at the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center, and actually,

even when I was at Harvard, um,

I did have small microscopy laboratories that I was,

that I was simultaneous simultaneously overseeing. I mean, we had a,

we had a very early, um, uh, one of these,

uh, clues together, um, um, uh, deconvolution systems,

um, when I was at, when I was at Rochester before they became, you know,

people started putting, you know, making them prettier and, and,

and more reliable. Um, so, so I had one, I had one of those when I was at, um,

at Harvard, at Dana-Farber. And then later on at, um, uh,

at Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center with David Ho, I had, uh,

we used one of these, uh, I don't know if the name's changed,

but it's called a Delta Vision System. Uh, and it's a, it's a,

it's a deconvolution microscope. Yeah.

I still get Delta vision. Oh.

Sort of don't get Delta visions, uh, and the imx,

but that they're, yeah. Things are moving forward still,

as always with the pace.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I like, you know,

so I kind of like that aspect of it. And, and, you know, I think,

you know, I, I really encourage people to, to, to, to, to,

to really become very comfortable with the microscope in,

in a flow cytometry kind of a setting. Um, you know, I,

you know, I, I could talk for, for quite a bit on this, but, and as, as can you,

I'm sure you know, we we're, we're, we're, you know,

you're looking at something on the screen and, and, and you, and you know,

something's wrong. Uh,

and you're trying to describe it from what you're looking at on the flow

cytometer. And, and my first thought is, let's take 7, 7, 7 microliters,

which is, by the way, the amount that fits, uh, fits really nicely under a 22,

uh, millimeter cover slip. If you, if you take seven, uh, that,

that one I found by trial and error. You know, it's almost like every,

every time you make that slide, you know, a wet prep, it's gonna, you know,

you're not gonna end up with a lot of bubbles and stuff.

Top tip number one. We need that for the, uh, for the, for the,

for the short edits. For the seven microliter has been the perfect amount.

I, I have you, you mentioned during that point, uh, David Ho,

and so I, I'm trying, one of my questions was, who's inspired you?

And you sent me a picture of David, so I presume David is one of your

Oh, people

Here. So I thought showing the pictures, actually,

to give some credit to David as well.

Just, just a, you know, just a, a brilliant, wonderful,

um, you know, uh, ex uh, I mean the,

the depth of his knowledge, you know, he, you know, David Ho was, uh,

the person, um, who was the, uh, the, the,

the president of, uh, and actually the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center.

Aaron Diamond is a, is a, uh, a real estate developer, um,

in New York City. Um, uh, and his, actually, his wife is very interesting also,

Irene Diamond. They did a, um, uh,

they did a Vanity Fair issue, uh, uh,

with Irene Diamond as the, as on the cover. Uh, and I think the title was, uh,

rebel with a Purse, uh, uh, because she had the money, uh,

from his, uh, uh, to, to go after really, you know, uh, uh,

socially important things. She was a, um, she was a playwright, uh,

in back in the early days, the, the early Hollywood days.

And their interest in the HIV, um, uh,

uh, situation came because she was noticing, you know, some of these, uh,

artists were, were from this disease. Uh,

so David was brought in, uh, at the start, the,

when they formed the Aaron Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center. And he's, uh,

he's a very, uh, understated individual. Uh,

but he reach is, uh, is, you know,

is worldwide. I mean, he has, you know, his group came up with the, um,

antiretroviral, uh, cocktail, uh, that turned, uh,

hiv aids into, you know, uh, from a death sentence into a, into a chronic,

manageable situation. Um, I was, uh,

lucky to be invited to his, uh, 70th birthday,

uh,

which was also the 30th anniversary of the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center.

Um, it's a, you know, fantastic. I mean, I've never been to a,

a gala like this. I mean, this would've, you know, if I had a tuxedo,

this is what would've been the place to wear it. But I don't have one.

Is this, is this you at the same, do this? Isn't you at the same do though?

Is it?

I'm sorry. Say again. This

Isn't, this isn't that party though, is it?

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. This is

About actually looks both looking super informal in a, in a jacket.

No, this is the, this is one of the, uh, I had already moved on. Um, so,

so that's another, uh, really nice thing. I, you know, I, I, I, I,

I quickly felt like I was part of this fa part of the family, um,

with, with they, the group, the, the Aaron Diamond AIDS Research Center is,

is a small center. Uh, I, I don't think there,

there are more than a hundred people, um, uh, working there. Um, and, um,

you know, so, so the interactions were fantastic. I mean, uh, you know,

thanks for bringing, thanks for, for noting that. I mean, David's been, uh,

you know, so, um, helpful to me. I mean, you know, I've, I I've been lucky.

I've had, I've had a lot of, uh, really great mentors.

I mean, I could also, you know, mention, uh, I mean, you know, Leon,

Leon Wheelis, who, uh, got me started in the field,

um, uh, after working at, at, at, uh, Rochester,

I moved to Philadelphia and worked with, uh, Donald Mosier,

who's a world class immunologist. Um, he, um, he was,

he really let me, uh, I mean, he, he, he, he,

he gave me a lot of, a lot of freedom. Uh, uh, and, and that was the first,

that was the first commercial flow cytometer ever used.

So I was moving from home-built instruments that, that we made in,

in Rochester. Uh, and in fact, just, you know, maybe may also be of interest,

um, we had developed what I,

I believe was the first imaging flow cytometer in Rochester. Uh,

that machine was built already when I started in 1977. Um, was that,

Wasn't this, was

It, uh, no, no, that, this is, um, this is actually two, uh,

cult epics, cell sorters, uh, that were, um,

this was the cell sorter in Cop and I, I, I, I, we had two in that laboratory,

although there were other laboratories, um, at Dana-Farber,

I think a lot of people know, uh, Jo John know of John Daley.

John Daley also had another core laboratory at Dana-Farber. We had, uh,

we weren't competing. We, we were just in serving different, different groups.

How is John, you still in touch with John?

Uh, John's, John's retired, uh, I think, um, um, um,

he's actually the same age as I am, but he, but he started, he,

he took his retirement, I think, last year. And from what I have heard, he's,

um, uh, he's building small, small, uh, well, I don't know small, but he's,

he's boat building. He's, he, he, he's off building boats somewhere.

I remember looking at some of his Facebook when he retired.

So it's the only way you keep in touch with some people is via Facebook and,

and then playing the fiddle, I think over in Dublin at one point,

and going round it, it was, yeah,

I just wondered how I was so looking at this, and another instrument here

Is, yeah, that's the, that's the, that's the facts two instrument,

which is very similar, um, uh, to the instrument. The,

this would, this was the first commercial, um, uh,

flow cytometer that I, that I ever operated. Um, this, uh, uh,

uh, this one, I think this is the, this is the system that's, I believe,

at the Smithsonian. Um, the, uh, that, uh,

so it's, so it's in a museum someplace. Um, I, I'm, I'm sure, um, uh,

Paul Robinson can, can tell us more about, uh, where this system came from.

But that's it. I mean, that, that, you know, it's a monster. Uh,

and that thing was only capable of doing, um, two colors. Uh,

and the only way you could do two colors was with two lasers. You,

you know, these, you know, all of the dyes that we, you know, that we, that we,

you know,

rummage through when we're trying to figure out how to put together 30 color

experiments. This stuff was unheard of and unimagined back then. I mean,

you know, when, when Fico Hyran came about, people were thrilled.

PE people were, that's actually a funny story because, um,

because I was working with Don Mosser at the time.

I worked with him from 1982 to 1986, and he had, uh,

he was a world-class immunologist,

so he had connections with Herzenbergs and Becton Dickinson and so forth. Um,

and Don handed me a sample of FICO

rine with the Spectra, and he said, uh, bd,

or I don't know if it was BD or Herzenberg or whoever, they sent it.

They sent the sample to him,

and I don't remember what it was conjugated to or whatever. He said,

let's give this a try on the machine and see how it looks.

So I had no knowledge of this, you know, this was before, uh, I mean, I,

all I knew is, this is a new diet. It's got, here's the spectra.

And I had, we had a two laser instrument, which, and,

and two laser instruments were rare at the time. So my thought was, oh,

they're sending this to us because we have a Krypton laser,

and a Krypton laser puts out a really strong 5 61, or 5 68,

I forget the, the nanometer linein. And I said, okay, great. I'll, I'll,

I'll turn this on. I, I got a filter, an optical filter, so I could look at it.

And I ran it, and I pulled on, I said, this,

this stuff is screaming bright. Look at this stuff. It's, it makes, you know,

it makes Fitzy look like, like you didn't turn the lights on. And, and Don said,

fantastic. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll send the information back.

So they sent the information back, and, and, and then sometime later,

Don comes in and says, Peter, you didn't do, you didn't do it the right way.

You didn't run the, the sample the right way. I was like, what do you mean?

And they said, they didn't want you to run it at 5 61,

they wanted you to run it at 4 88. And I was like,

why would you want to run this at four eight? And, you know, like,

oh, now you can get another color off the 4 88 laser.

So you don't need that other laser. And yeah. And there, you know, again,

there's another one that the rest is history.

You know, Joe, what's amazing, I mean, that if you, you know,

for the listeners now, you're,

you're thinking about how exciting it must have been CPE for the first time.

We just take for granted now, but to be at that early innovation.

And yet there are still those moments in the lab, even today, there's new dyes,

new technologies, new approaches. And I, I dunno, last,

I think the last three years,

there's been two moments that I've been looking at whole new beat test or

concept products. I'm just gone, ah, three times. I'm just gone.

Oh my goodness. You know, who'd have thought we could ever do that?

And it's just different things that just were not possible, not imaginable.

They think, wow, what science can we answer using it? Mm-Hmm.

So imagine now you're going from one color, two color to, to have more colors.

It just opens up what you can do. And now they're asking for 30 plus colors,

just no pleasing some of the scientists today. I I have a question though. Yeah.

I've been listening. You've, you've,

how many different jobs have you actually had?

Oh, well, yeah, I've had a couple. But, you know, you gotta remember,

it's over 46 years. So, so it's not, um, yeah. So, uh, uh, uh,

five I started at, I started at University of Rochester in 77. I went,

I was there from 77 to 82. Uh, then I worked with, uh,

Don Moser at the Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia,

82 to 86. Um, then I was,

uh, um, by the way, I was recruited, this is another odd thing. Uh, and it's,

I think, well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get back to this,

but this has a bit to do with Paul Horan, because Paul Horan for,

so Paul Horan is, is another guy that I worked with in Rochester, um,

responsible for the PKH Dy, the, the, uh, the cell tribe. That's his initials.

Paul Carl Horan. Uh, he's, he's, and he's been also another one of,

although I never worked directly with him. We were all in the same group. Um,

but I think he used to drop my name at meetings or something, be, be, uh, and,

and I'd get these phone calls from people, and they, and they wanted,

I was like, hello, who are you? Uh, because I didn't know, well, actually,

I mo a lot of the times I did know the folks. Um, but, but getting back to the,

to the jobs, uh, Fox Chase Cancer Center in Philadelphia.

Then I went to Harvard. So I was at the Dana-Farber, uh, cancer Institute.

That's where, where, where, uh, where John Daley was working the other way.

But I was working with, uh, Ellis Wein Hertz, who is, um,

big t-cell immunologist, responsible for a lot of the T-cell receptor, um,

knowledge that we have. So I was there, uh, for a while. And then at that point,

so that was, let's see. Um, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm not great with math. I,

I used to be, uh, I'm just trying to think of how long I had been in the field.

I, at that point, I, at that point, I,

I had been in the academic environment for quite a while, and I heard, you know,

there's, there's another world out there, this industry. Um, so I said, well,

maybe, maybe I should check out industry for a while, see if there, see if that,

like freshens things up. Um, so, um, that was, um,

uh, there was a company, uh, at the time called Sation.

And they were doing demos, uh, for, uh, at that point,

they didn't have the MO flow. They inve, they came up with the, they, um,

commercialized the mo flow cell sorter. Um,

but they had other instrumentation at the time,

and they were demonstrating stuff. And I was, I was, uh, uh, actually,

John Daley used to get the demos, and John would invite me over. So I'd go over,

uh, uh, and, and look at the stuff. And, you know, after a while they said, Hey,

would you, would you consider moving to Colorado? So, so I did, and I worked, I,

I, I, I worked on the mo flow for, for a while. Uh, that went until, uh,

2000. So that was 96 to 2000. Um, and, uh,

then at that point, uh, moved back to New York. I'm a native New Yorker,

uh, and worked with David Ho from 2000 to 2007. Uh, and,

um,

for about two ye the last two years of my time with David Ho,

NYU was aggressively re trying to recruit me. Uh, um,

and that was an interesting story because, 'cause uh, it was,

I was playing squash with a, uh, I, I'm not a great squash player, but I was,

I was playing s squash with a lot of the, um,

the senior faculty who I had, who I had known,

who I grew to know from previous jobs. Um,

a guy named Mike Dustin, who, uh, another famous immunologist and charact,

and you probably know him 'cause he's at Oxford now. Um, I knew,

I knew Mike when he was a graduate student.

I worked with him at Dana-Farber when he was a graduate student. I mean, uh,

talk about another great mentor and, and, and just prolific scientist. Um,

we'd be playing squash all the time. You know, Dan Litman, also another, uh, uh,

big, I mean, obviously. And, and I'm playing squash with these guys. Um,

and meanwhile they're trying to convince me without, you know,

really just not, not high pressure to come across the street.

And that's what it was. It's basically across the street in New York City,

between, at the time, Aaron Diamond, uh, was on 24th Street at First Avenue,

and NYU was at 30th Street on First Avenue. So it was basically, you know,

a job. It wasn't, it wasn't improving my commute in any way,

because I live 60 miles north of Manhattan. Yes. Well,

maybe it did by four blocks,

Peter, outta all these jobs. Uh, what,

what have you found the most difficult time in your career to date?

What was the hardest time, most challenging time?

Wow. Um, you know, in a lot of these jobs, um,

the beginning of the jobs were the challenging times, uh, because, uh,

at, uh, at, uh, Fox Chase,

it was very challenging.

'cause I had never operated one of these commercial instruments before.

So I was a little challenged at the beginning, um,

getting things up and running, um, reliably, uh,

I was really learning on my own. Uh,

I don't know if it was common in the back in those days to have service

contracts or to have people helping you,

but I know we didn't have one at Fox Chase. So I had to fix,

I had to figure out the fax to on my own. Um, I did, I did, uh,

uh, I did reach out from time to time to, uh,

folks at NIH. Uh, there was a person there named Susan Shero.

Uh, Susan was, um, another high level immunologist. And she,

she had a number of systems and her, uh,

she had a great relationship with Don Moser. So I was able to, to, to, to,

to chat with her and to get help. So, you know, and, and then, um, both, uh,

Dana-Farber as well as NYU, uh,

I think it's safe to say those core laboratories were in pretty bad shape, uh,

when I got recruited. So it was tough going, uh, during the,

during those early days. So I think that would be, you know, the, the,

a couple of these jobs, uh, that I took in the, you know,

the early stages were rough because I didn't have a lot of resources.

I just had to, you know, figure it out, make, make things happen. I mean,

you know, N-Y-U-N-Y-U just really, uh,

was difficult because the lab was a disaster. Uh, at the time,

it was a single person laboratory. Right now it's a six person laboratory.

So with the, at the same institution. Uh, and, and, and, uh,

that's another story because, 'cause a lot of the work was coming,

A lot of the NYU work was coming to me at Aaron Diamond 'cause they just

couldn't get work done.

So, Peter, why keep jumping? Because, because every, every time you jump,

you jump into a, into, you know, you, you get a place running well smoothly,

you're on top of the instrument,

and then you've hopped and you've gone into a place that needs pulling up.

What's motivated you to, to keep switching?

Uh, well, maybe there's, maybe there's a, uh,

maybe there's just a little bit of ADHD that I deal with in my life.

So I'm always looking for something, uh, something shiny to distract me. Um,

but, um, um, you know, and yeah,

it may really be that, you know, after, you know, it sounds like a lot,

but these jobs were seven years, 10 years. I mean, this, this, this NYU job, uh,

which I'm now retiring from, I, I've been there for 16 years. Um, so,

um, just, just new challenges. You know, when I was, when I was, uh,

at Dana-Farber, towards the end, I started, you know, saying, well, yep,

been there, done that. What, what, what's my next move? Uh,

and sometimes these things happen, you know, faster than other times. Um,

okay. And, and, and that was really, it just, just, you know, and,

and these were moves, uh, of, of in location also. You know, I,

so that was another thing that, uh, uh, you know, you know,

you find a place to live and maybe you've, you know, after some, you know,

maybe the neighborhoods start changing or things start changing where you're

living. And, um, you know, so it was, um, I think these were the things I,

you know, I was never, as I said, these were all recruitments. So, I mean,

maybe that's another part, you know, when something gets, you know, you know,

gets dropped off at your door, you look at it and say, Hmm,

maybe this is something I wanna keep

An, an element of. It's not flattery, but feeling wanted and

Could be

Where that's wanted. So I'm gonna ask you the converse. Uh,

I asked you most difficult, most challenging time, and that was the start, uh,

of starting at the labs again, and the starting of a UDub bringing up

of all the time in your career. What has been the,

if you could go back and relive year Mm, which, what,

which period would it be?

Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow, wow.

When you got glasses on, you could,

you can look at those rose tinted glasses and think, oh, that was, they,

they were golden times. What was the most golden time?

Well, you know, sation in, in, in,

in Fort Collins and Colorado was,

you know, it certainly had its ups and downs, but there,

because it was a smaller group, um, and I met, I,

I may even segue into Aaron Diamond also,

because they were both smaller groups where, um,

where I, you know, I, I had a feel I, you know, definitely at Mation, I mean,

once things started clicking with the MO flow,

I was feeling like we were just kicking ass and, and, and just,

just making real important contributions. Uh, I mean, we, you know,

we certainly, with any new flow, any new instrument, no matter what it is,

you know, there's gonna be, uh, you know, some issues.

But we were addressing things. We were getting stuff resolved. Um,

you know, people were, uh,

were happy with what we were doing. And I felt, you know, this was, you know,

there were, there were really late nights ATS animation. Yeah,

I'm talking about work. I'm not talking about the other,

there were other late nights too, which were always fun too. You know,

the comradery of the group, really, that just turned me on. I mean, you know,

everybody is willing to stay till midnight, you know,

it is not just me working in the lab, you know, with a light on and, and,

and nobody else around, but people were just, you know, the comradery and,

and the notion that we were doing significant stuff. Um, you know,

that was, uh, that was really important. And, and, and I, and,

and I have similar kinds of feelings. Um, I mean, the, you know, all of my jobs,

I, I think there were, were these times. But, you know, to answer your question,

the standout moment I think would probably be those earl those, uh,

those days at, at, at Sation.

I, I love the fact of all the cytometer pictures you sent me.

You didn't send me one of em overflow.

I didn't send you one. Okay.

No, I'm not, I'm just looking into, I can't see one of em overflow,

and I can't find mine.

Okay. Don't worry about it. Don't worry.

I already changed tack a bit.

You said you burnt into the late nights and you sent some pictures yourself.

I, late night, what,

you sent me this picture of these two drinks in quite kind of really cool sort

of art deco glassware. Actually, I've gotta say I love the glasses,

but a what are they and are you that famous for drinking?

Well, so the glasses actually, um, uh, well, that's a,

that's a bit of a story. Um, I mean, you know, I,

you know, we've been to meetings together and, and, and, and, and,

and people know me. You know, I've, I'll I, I'll enjoy a,

an adult beverage with, with colleagues chatting over anything, uh, at any time.

Um, so, um, one of, uh,

a, A-A-A-A-A colleague and now a, a friend, uh, at, um,

uh, NYU, uh, uh,

actually someone who invited me to help them on, uh, with, with their,

with a ver with a really, uh, significant, um, um, uh,

sell reports paper. Um, uh, he, uh,

after Hegra, after he left, um, uh, he's, he's still,

he's a consultant and working for, uh,

and doing other things kind of in bio and also in in business.

He got seriously into cocktails,

and he started sending me pictures of, of cocktails, uh, and, and,

you know, he'd send me a, a,

a picture of a glass with something clear in the glass. And I was like, oh,

that's, that looks like a martini. And he said, no, it's a daiquiri. And I,

and I cleared out everything, and I was like, and, and, and I said, yeah,

and how's it taste? He says, it tastes exactly like it should.

And so this guy is, was, was, was in very deep. Um,

and we got into it at my house. 'cause I was, he would send me recipes. Uh,

he would always, he would always tweak a recipe. So that, so with this, what,

what we're looking at here, first off,

the glasses are a gift from my wife Linda, uh, surprisingly. Um,

this is a Christmas gift. And that year we both gave each other glasses, uh,

cocktail glasses. Uh, the, these are the ones that, that she got from me.

And yeah, they're, they're really very, very special. Um, um, hand washed,

by the way. Uh, uh,

Yes.

Yeah. And what you're looking at, uh, and this is a,

this is simply a picture that I took to send to my colleague, uh, Vish.

And this is, um, uh, this is a, uh,

what's called a maple sour. Um, it turns out that, uh,

I've got a lot of hobbies. And one of them is, uh, is,

is that I make maple syrup. Uh, there you go.

There it is. That's my, uh, that's my, uh, 2023 crop,

uh, which is, uh, the, the season is over at the moment. Uh, but the, uh,

the last, uh, um, so that's,

that's the result of a number of different days, uh,

of collection of sap and boiling sap. I, yeah. Oh, and there, and that's, that,

that's my house. And, and actually, let's see, if you, um, uh, you can, uh,

you can sort of see in, in, in the tree to the left, at the base,

there's a little bucket. And actually if, once you identify that,

you can see there are other buckets. Um, in, in the pictures,

there are little white buckets at the base of the trees. Yep. There you go.

There you go. Mm-Hmm. Yep. And the, and, and that's where collecting, uh, the,

uh, the trees there. There's a lot of trees on this property, but, uh, the, the,

the selected trees are sugar maples. So the sugar maple sap is then boiled down.

Um, and this picture, I think is maybe no more than two weeks old. Um,

so, uh, so I've got a lot of maple syrup. Um, I, I love maple syrup.

I mean, that's just, uh, you know, pure, you know, uh, pure maple syrup is, is,

is a joy. I mean, that's my, my friends in Canada, uh, uh, uh, call it,

call it liquid gold, um, because that, 'cause Canada's such a big producer.

Yeah. So that's a, so that's a, um, a, um, uh, maple,

uh, sour. It's, uh, um, you know what,

I, I'm not gonna be able to, I know it's got maple syrup,

and I know it's got lemon juice,

and I think the spirit is thinking it's vodka,

but I'm not sure, um, or might be wrong. But anyway, that's what it is. And,

and these are just pictures that, that,

that go back and forth between Bishop and myself. He's always got some,

some really amazing stuff that he's, he's doing pulling together. And, uh,

I'm just sending him kind of this, this everyday and stuff.

But I try to get nice glasses.

Well,

at least the pictures are sensible that you are sending between the both of you.

Peter, I'm gonna ask you some quick fire questions.

Oh, boy.

Okay. So what's your favorite color?

Oh, I may, I may lean towards red.

Okay. What's your favorite dye?

Oh, my favorite dye.

I always wanted to say bromine, uh, uh, in a public setting, but it,

it isn't because I like that rolling r Hermine, but it, but it's not, um, I,

I like the Philly bi, uh, the Bil Proteins. I'm gonna go with pe. I just,

I just like big molecules that, that fluoresce, like, holy hell.

Okay. Are you an early bird or night owl?

Early bird? Uh,

I'll, I'll, um, you, you said, am I an early bird, right? Oh, you an

Early bird, or a al?

Oh, night, Al. Um, I'll, I'll be burning the candle late. So the

Night, Al?

Yeah.

PC or Mac?

Uh, pc. Okay. Yeah.

McDonald's or Burger King?

Uh, neither.

So if you had a takeaway, what would you go for?

Ah, uh, I'd try to find someplace where that has,

that has a good selection, but is, you know,

but I can identify what's inside.

If you were to cook yourself, what would you cook?

Oh, I, I, pizza's usually one of my go-tos. Uh,

you know, uh, I will be eating pizza at my house, like the one that, uh,

the image, um, at least once a week.

Okay. Yeah, we we're definitely a pizza house once a week. Uh, yes,

definitely for sure. Coffee or tea?

Uh, uh, tea. Coffee. But coffee. But this is tea.

I was about to say, that's no way that coffee.

This is tea.

It's coffee in the world, so, okay. So you've got tea now, but not generally.

Coffee, beer or wine?

Oh, boy, that's a tough one. Um, I'm gonna probably say wine. Um, that's,

uh,

Okay. That, that's fine. That's fine. Red or white?

Red or white wine?

Probably gonna be red.

Red. Okay. I'm now gonna challenge you even more. Wine or cocktails,

You know, wine, probably.

Ooh, okay. Chocolate or cheese.

Oh, boy. Together, um, uh,

that's a, to I, you know, probably cheese.

Okay. So you're married, you've got Linda,

your wife, you said, who cooks at home mostly?

I, I was trained professionally, so, um, I'm, I'm, my wife can cook,

but I, it's me.

Okay. Uh, TV or book?

Oh, yeah, it's probably gonna be tv.

Okay. And God, what's the trashiest tv? You dare admit to,

or you don't admit to, but you were about to tell me anyway.

Flash is tv. Oh, boy, boy, boy, boy, boy,

Come on. You can't be watching that much bad TV to not that,

not to be able to decide on one

Trashy tv. Um,

The smile on your face tells me the, I'm

Kind of liking, I'm kind of liking. And she's from, she's from Britain. Uh, uh,

uh, kunk.

Oh, kunk Kong Britain and stuff. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's, would that

Be considered trashy? I think she's, I think, uh, yeah,

I guess she could get away with trashy. Very entertaining.

Oh, man, are you kidding me? I mean, I, I just, I have had the, the, the,

the longest laughs with some of the, I mean, her timing and, uh, I mean,

you know, some of this stuff is just absurd that she says,

but sometimes she comes up with something and I just can't, I,

I have to turn it off. It's like, nah, I,

You know, we should do a kunk in Britain for a place optometrist or something.

You just ask those really staff questions and just take it in a direction not

meant.

Right. So, science man.

Uh, oh, I love it. Uh, what,

what's your favorite film?

2001, A Space Odyssey.

Oh.

If there's anything better, I wanna know about it.

Good. Classic film. Are you a star? What,

what would you prefer to watch Star Wars or Star Trek?

Oh, Trek, star Trek. Good

Man. It's kind of a trick question,

but some people do actually admit to Star Wars,

but sort scientist gotta be Trek. Well,

what sort of music genre are you into? What's your music taste?

Um, music tastes are usually, uh, uh, I'm, I'm a,

I'm a child of the late sixties, so rock and roll. Um, but I will,

uh, uh, the guilty pleasure. I will enjoy, uh, pop, uh,

kind of pop, rock, uh, type of songs. Yeah, that's, that's,

that's almost everything that I listen to. Although I'll, I'll, you know, I I,

I have a classical music collection and, um, um, so if you, if you're gonna ask,

uh, uh, vinyl CD or streaming, I have a lot of vinyl, uh,

although I don't have my vinyl set up. Uh, but, but I'm, I'm a bit of a, um,

I like that. I like that warm sound.

Oh, no. Thinking of vinyl records, uh, I dunno if you know Scott Fraser, uh,

so he is a very, microscopy won't, sorry. And I do the microscopy.

So similar to this Yeah.

Uhhuh

Scott has,

he makes his own amplifiers and he's got his vinyl record player made on an IKEA

breadboard.

Kidding. And

Interestingly, I was with Scott there, actually, I was gonna mention earlier,

we talked about all the technologies of the move through.

So Scott bought spectral, uh, microscopy to the scene.

So spectral, I'm mixing the 32 detector array me.

It actually was Scott Fraser's baby that he bought into the confocal microscopy

world over 20 years ago. And here we are 20 years later,

only just really embracing it in the flow cytometry world.

I know, I know.

What do you think to spectral flow cytometry?

Well, I think there's, you know, I think, well, first off, I mean, you already,

you already prefaced this by saying it's, it's been around, um, and, and,

and it's shown, you know, in the, on the microscopy side, and, you know,

some people will even point to the, uh, the, uh, astronomical,

uh, work that was, is done with Spectra, you know? Um, and, um, uh,

which is another kind of that, that, that was a, uh,

another hobby of mine a a while back. But, um,

I think there's gonna be some,

there is great power there to do things. Um, you know,

people might might say, well, yeah,

you could probably do that without the spectral technology, but it's empowering,

having that capability, um, you know,

things with things related, you know,

definitely anything related to Autofluorescence, I think that's a, you know,

it's a strong, uh, help there. Uh, I think it's, uh, you know,

it, it's, you know, I'm there,

there are some things that I'm still waiting for people to show me. If,

if, if, you know, how, how, you know, for instance, how, how, you know,

I don't know if this is out there already, but, but, you know, how can you, how,

how does spectral work with, um, with dyes that shift their emission?

Um, you know, uh, you know, you know, and then,

then I may just not know the answer because, and it's out there already, but,

but it, it's not obvious to me. You know, how you could do, um,

you know, an experiment like with Indo one? Yeah.

I say Indo dies would be a, yeah. Yeah. Do you know what,

conceptually it's possible. Conceptually it's possible, but it would take a

Yeah, offline.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I'm exactly,

That can work,

Right? Yeah. I'm, I, I'm sure it is. And I'm sure at some point, even,

even if it's not in place in flow cytometry, if enough people ask for it,

they'll that that'll, that'll come out. Um, but I think, you know,

I think it's, it's, it's, uh, you know, I, I, I know some labs where they're,

they're just replacing everything with spectral systems, you know?

I don't think that's a, that's a bad move that, but, you know,

I do also think that there is a place for

conventional systems, um,

especially if they're open and you can get into 'em and you can do things with

them. Um, you know, that's, that was, that was a real,

a real strength of the mo flow. You know,

a lot of people would look at the MO flow and they're like, oh, oh,

look at this thing. It's a whole bunch of, it looks like somebody's, uh,

physics project. Um, and we knew that, uh,

but we never put a box around it. It was just, you know,

people want to get in there and, and do things.

So I think there's still gonna be a place for that. And maybe that's where the,

you know, I, you know, I, I'm not gonna put a crystal ball up and,

and try to make predictions, uh, but, you know,

maybe we might see instruments, you know, I have no knowledge of this, but,

you know, I'm just putting it out there. Maybe we're gonna see flow cytometers,

you know, they might be a, you know,

a flow cytometer that's just an open machine again, you know, where,

where you know every, where most of your instruments a spectral.

But here's this other one. If you wanna do something special,

and you can actually, you know, change the filters, or, or you can, you know,

or you can, you know, put something, you know, you can put,

put a halfway retarder in front of, in, in front of the laser.

You could do something that, you know,

would be impossible with these nice clean boxes.

Well, strangely, that's the way the world, you know, the,

the microscopy world is certainly going down that the home brew type microscopes

as well, sort of the home brew specialist things,

which would be to answer just that sort of question.

And I thinking of home brew, and I don't mean alcohol now,

Which I do. Oh, and that, oh, there you go. You also

Sent me a picture of a Yeah,

That's a, that's a, yeah, it's a telescope. Yeah,

A telescope for stargazing and stuff. And so this is what you got,

you interested in optics to start with, is that correct?

Uh, yeah. It's, uh, I, I was, I was, I was quite an astronomy buff. Uh, I mean,

to be, you know, to, to bring it back to the beginning, I, uh, you know, I, my,

my father, um, uh, who, who, uh, actually, uh,

never graduated high school. Um, uh, he was a, um,

he was a, uh, in the, um, HVAC heating,

ventilation and air conditioning, um, initially as a mechanic,

and then later as an engineer. He, uh,

when I was, when I was a baby, things were happening, uh,

with, uh, with space flight, uh, you know, the, the,

the mercury astronauts and, and so forth.

And my dad used to play games with me about, uh, what,

where we were making believe we're, we're, we're, we're launching a rocket.

I mean, he will tell me these stories because I, I don't,

he's passed on because I won't, I don't remember them. Uh, but I was, uh,

you know,

I was some early at three or four years old and talking about putting liquid

oxygen into the, into the, into the, into the lower stage of the thing. And,

and, and we, we have to wait till events. And, you know, I don't know how,

how this happened, but I, I, you know, it was really quite the science art.

And then that space thing got me in, in,

in interested in astronomy. Uh, I grew up in, uh,

in New York City, and there's a famous, uh,

planetarium called the Hayden Planetarium. It's attached to the, um,

to the Museum of Natural History.

And I wanted to go to that, but I was too young.

They wouldn't let children in unless they were five years or older. And,

and I must've been four because I kept on saying,

I wanna go to the ha because I had, because you could go to the museum.

The museum had, you know, dinosaurs and all this, you know,

all this other cool stuff, which I was into too. Um,

but I wanted to go to the planetarium. And finally I turned five,

and my father said, we're going to the planetarium.

And that was just so thrilling to me. So I was interested.

That got me interested in astronomy.

I was in astronomy clubs and stuff like that. And then, you know, and, uh,

you know, an outgrowth of that is having your own telescope. So, um,

you know, I read about it. I learned about it, and the,

and the optics of putting that together, uh, got me a, um, uh, that,

that, that wasn't my telescope. That's a very similar one. Mine is, I,

I still have it. Actually,

I was about to ask, do you still have your telescope then?

I, yeah, I still have it. Uh, and, and I really have to get off my ass and, and,

and pull, pull that thing out, uh,

because I've been carrying it around with me now for a while. And, um, I,

if, if you remember the picture with that, with that big white tube,

it's not attached, uh, to the, to, to the right. Yeah.

So the big white tube is the telescope and everything underneath is the,

is what is called the mount. It, it holds it so they're disconnected. Uh,

and the tube, uh, is, uh, in my garage is vertical.

And people look at that thing and think it's a water heater because it's so big

and round, it looks like, you know, a domestic water heater. I was like, no,

it's a telescope. Uh,

so I've been saying that long enough that I really should get that thing out

and, and look at it. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm north of New York City now,

so the skies are, are, are, are pretty nice. And, um, you know, I'll, I'll,

I'll, I'll get out there still with binoculars and, and see, you know,

try to see things. Um, I'm, I'm, I'm actually, um,

a solar eclipse chaser also. I've, I've, um, I've,

I've seen a number of total. I, I, I, uh, you know, they, I will,

I will travel to, I, I'll get on a plane if, if it's,

if it's a reasonable trip to go see a total solar eclipse. And I,

I really encourage people to, to make the effort if in their lifetime,

just to see such a thing. I mean,

the a a total eclipse is just the most bizarre spectacle.

But that is a total fluorescence geek thing to do,

to try and remove as much scattered light as possible. And you just chase the,

the removal of scattered light. I, I, and I noticed actually,

if this is your house, you've got a lot of trees around it,

which is gonna give you a problem. Now, we've only got five minutes left,

and there's a few things that came out. Some of more of the pictures.

You sent me a pictures. Uh, so these, oh,

Mushrooms, hobbies. Yeah. The, yeah, that's, that's a hobby. That's a, um,

these are oyster mushrooms that I, that I've grown.

They're actually a little bit, a little bit past prime. The, uh,

they're starting the, the,

the outer margins are starting to curve up a little bit. Um, I, I,

I started doing this. This was my pandemic, um, hobby. Uh,

my, my, my wife Linda is a, is a cancer survivor. And, um,

uh, she's been interested in increasing mushrooms in our, um, uh,

in our diet and been buying them at the store. And then I learned that,

you know, you can, you can actually grow these things on coffee grounds again,

coffee, first, tea later. But the, um, uh, the thing is,

um, they're, um, uh, they're quite easy to grow.

They grow incredibly fast. It's, it, it's quite frightening fast.

They grow once they get, so I don't grow them on coffee grounds. Um,

they grow on straw. And, um, and that's a, that's a, uh,

on a scale, I think that's a pound, uh, almost a pound and a half of, uh,

oyster. And they're delicious. I mean, they're just, they're just fantastic.

Yeah.

Uh, my, my nephew actually, this is his living. He is,

he is growing mushrooms for, uh, fine dining, uh,

sounds em down on the London markets. Uh, so Harvey Piper down there.

So he's got things like, uh, lion's Maine

And Lion's Maine. Yep. I've grown those. Yeah. I've grown lion's. Man.

I don't have a good picture of the lion's mane. Yeah. The,

the i I grow Lion's mane and, and, and these, uh, currently, but I might,

I might, I, I might try to broaden up a little bit.

So you've got cocktail making we call syrup. You've got mushrooms.

You sent me a picture of this.

Oh, oh, spider. That's a, that's a, um, um,

it's interesting because I actually, it's a fiat spider, um, uh,

the Fiat 1 24 spider, actually, to be, to, to be really precise. Uh,

Fiat stopped selling their cars in the US in 19, uh,

oh, I think it was 1982. And then Italian,

another Italian company called Pin and Farina, um,

basically took the same exact car, slapped their name on it,

and sold it for another three years in, in, in, uh, in the United States.

And as of 85, they never, they, they, they, they went away. Actually,

they've come back. Uh, but anyway, this is a 1983 Fiat spider.

It's a restoration project that I do drive. Um, but it, it, it,

it hearkens back to my first car. I had the same car,

uh, I think in ni, uh, it was a 1969,

and that car was a death trap. It was completely rusted. Uh, and,

and after I got rid of, actually, that just went, that just went to the, uh,

to the dumpster. I mean, it was, it, it just got picked up by a flatbed, the,

the, the first one. And then, you know, years later, I said, you know,

maybe I should find one that that is, that still has, um,

some metal and it's not completely rusted. And, and, and, and, and see and, and,

and try to keep it up. So that's my little, maybe. Yep.

So you have old cars,

you've got your syrup, you've got your mushrooms,

you've got your telescopes. You confess to working late at night.

You've gone traveled many different destinations,

and you have a wife.

Mm-Hmm.

How, how does that work? She must, she where, where's the time here?

Uh, well, um, e well, a, uh,

for those of you who, who we see at meetings,

you usually notice that she's there with me. So every, every, uh,

almost all of all of my traveling, I will include her in it. Um, I,

you know, uh, you know, I'm happy to say that, you know,

that's one thing that I really learned, uh, through the pandemic,

is if there's anybody that I would wish to be

locked up with for, for, for years on end, it's Linda. So, um,

so she's just, you know, I mean, she's, you know, as they say clearly,

the better half. Um, she's, uh, she's wonderful.

Uh, uh, uh, she, uh, I, I can't say enough about her. Um,

and she puts up with all of it,

The better half, but not the better cook. Can I quote you on that from earlier?

Um,

Yeah, probably. Probably. That's, it's okay. She'll be fine with that.

She'll be fine with that. Um, yeah.

So we are up to the hour, but I,

I have to ask one more question 'cause you sent me a picture of

Ah,

Please describe, describe this. This looks like a torpedo No, it's a submarine.

What is it?

Yeah. So this is a, um, this is what's called an, uh, autonomous, underwater,

underwater vehicle. Uh,

for those of you who were at the Cyto 2022 meeting,

the, um, there's a woman kneeling, uh,

on the right side of the picture. That's Heidi Sek. Uh,

she was one of the speakers, uh, not in the, uh, I think that's your mouse.

Uh, not in the, uh, solid blue, uh, to the other side. Uh, yep. That,

yeah, that's, that. That's Heidi. Yeah, that's Heidi. So this is, um,

this is at the, um,

Monterey Bay Aquarium Research Institute.

I collaborated, in fact, I, I dabbled a little bit with marine biology.

Um, and, um, uh, this is, uh,

this is an instrument that, that, that they built and designed. Um,

and you basically put any type of scientific payload

in the orange part in the front, um,

and send these things off. And they run missions autonomously. They're,

they're robots. Uh, and they can come up for, uh, come up for, uh,

energy recharging with solar panels. So this is a group,

these are a number of people who were invited, uh, for a workshop.

And we were basically, um,

challenged by the Monterey Bay Aquarium to come up with

apparatus to stick into these things, to do things like, uh,

um, predict, um, uh,

harmful algal blooms and things of that nature. So my, my job there, uh, there,

I, uh, Heidi was Heidi's Heidi's a lot more. I mean, Heidi's, you know,

one of the biggest names in that, in this field. I, I was just there, i I,

because I got a little bit,

a little bit more on the instrumentation design side. Uh, we were,

we were the flow cytometry folks,

but there are people there with all sorts of novel. I mean,

there were microscopists in that group, um, uh, looking at, you know, how,

how can we get images of, of, of things that might predict, um, uh, you know,

so that's a, yeah. Uh, that, that, that was a lot of fun. Also, uh, to, to, to,

to go back to your question about highlights, uh,

but that was just a side kind of a gig, but

That we, we are over the hour. Okay.

And we didn't get to talk about Isaac and the importance of Isaac and the

recognition to yourself that Isaac's awarded you some of the courses and events

and some, well,

you've gotta work out which one you are on this picture because Oh,

The guy. It's the guy with the longest hair.

Yeah. I You had super long hair at one point, uh, and,

and I think you had Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Leon, Leon's, Leon's in the, uh, Leon Willis,

the guy who gave me my first job is, is, is seated, uh, next, next to Ted Young,

uh, um, in, uh, Leon's, in front of Myron Malamed. But, uh,

if, if we're not, uh, if those names aren't familiar, he's the guy in the left,

uh, uh, in actually, uh, uh,

there's both guys on the left have kind of tan color, so, so Leon's, uh, Jack,

he Leon's the guy with, with the facial hair.

I just love the fact to Yeah, yeah. Just, yeah, just, just,

just looking at how you changed over time is utterly,

utterly brilliant. So I couldn't resist actually putting those up.

Peter, we are really sorry. Add your time. I've still got questions to ask you,

but you sight side this year,

I will probably be sight this year. Yes, I will.

We, and grab a drink. Yes.

Absolute. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And some mushrooms

Because

You know, you are fun guy to be with's. A really bad joke to end on. Anyway,

so everyone who's watched and listened today, thank you so much.

Please go back and look at the other previous, uh, flow stars.

We have some more histories there. Yeah. Uh, hopefully See you all at cyto.

And please, Peter, yourself, thank you so much for joining us today.

You've been brilliant. Thank you.

Thank you.