Sofie Van Gassen (VIB-UGent)
Welcome to Flowstars, candid conversations between doctor Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of flow cytometry, brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite Size Bio.
Peter O'toole:Welcome to Flowstars. And today, I'm joined by Sophie Van Gassen from VIB. She shares her motivations for getting involved with Flow Cytometry. And someone, one of the fastest rising stars in Flow Cytometry, shares her vision for the future of data science and the quality she thinks a good principal investigator should have. All this coming up in Flowstars.
Peter O'toole:Hi. Welcome to this special edition of Flowstars. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York, and today, I'm joined by Sofie Van Gasson from the VIB in Ghent. Sophie, how are you?
Sofie Van Gassen:Hi. I'm doing well. Thank you so much for having me today.
Peter O'toole:That's okay. I don't think we've ever met in person. And yet I know about your work, and it's work that I don't think I could ever replicate or duplicate. So, actually, do wanna just very quickly start for for the listener or the viewer? What is it? Where is your area of expertise?
Sofie Van Gassen:So I I have a background in computer science, actually. So not not in immunology, not in not in anything biology related. And so I've been working in bioinformatics. Actually, the topic of my PhD was machine learning for flow cytometry. So then when I was, like, considering doing a PhD, I got introduced to this to this technology. And since then, I've been working on flow cytometry data, and I've been enjoying it a lot. So algorithm development, developing pipelines for existing datasets, things like that. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:Did you not say just before we started recording that you're not good at remembering numbers?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's why the computer remembers them all for me.
Peter O'toole:Right? Okay. Fair enough. Like I say, for someone who plays with lots of numbers, that's kind of an interesting problem to have with it. So okay. So you did a PhD, and you would give you no. You must your PhD must have started with flow cytometry, surely.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. So the the topic of it was really flow cytometry. So, basically, my my professor, just noticed that people were doing all this manual analysis of this data. People he was collaborating with and was thinking, like, there seems to be room in here for for exploring some some algorithms, seeing whether we can help these people with automating some of these task, things like that. And so he proposed this topic, and then we were immediately collaborating with with the people actually measuring the data. I think that's been a huge benefit for me that it was not just, like, in a computer science group, a theoretical exercise, like, oh, let's look at these data points and try to find some clusters in there, but that we were actively talking to the people who were generating the data and which questions and problems they were facing. And so that's that's been the whole focus of my PhD and actually of my work still. I I think I'm one of those few people who kind of keep doing what they're doing after their PhD. Like, I'm I'm now already a number of years a a postdoc, but I'm still doing kind of the same things as I did during my PhD. And, of course, now a bit more guidance than the at the start of my PhD, of course, when it was mainly the programming. But, yeah, topic wise, it's it's still very closely related.
Peter O'toole:It's it's an interesting area to have chosen as a PhD student to to know the importance, relevance, to be inspired to do flow cytometry. It's computer science. The world is your oyster. But why I I've got a lot why did you think flow cytometry was for you?
Sofie Van Gassen:Actually, I was very hesitant to do a PhD, and my professor had to kind of convince me because I wanted to do something applied. I wanted to do something that was used, and I was a bit afraid if you do a PhD in computer science, you're just, like, reasoning about algorithms, and there's lots of value in that, but it would not be for me if it was just a theoretical exercise. But then he convinced me, like, these these people that I'm collaborating with who are facing these specific issues. And if you work on this, you could actively be involved in that and help them. And so that's that's applied aspect of it, even though it's still done applied and fundamental research, of course, but the applied aspect of the the algorithm side of things is what really convinced me. He convinced me, like, if you work in this, people will use your tools. And, actually, that's that's turned out to be the case by now, so that that's really cool. And that's also really where I get my my motivation and my things to do this. Yeah. Absolutely.
Peter O'toole:So I can see just by your smile, your eyes, your enthusiasm that you you're loving the work, the environment. And, you know, quite often so I I've employed lots of data scientists over time, and I quite often hear, oh, yes. But you'll never get a good data scientist because they can earn lots more money working for Google or the banks or someone else. I always disagree. But go on. Why have you chosen this instead of going earning lots of money for in other areas?
Sofie Van Gassen:I think the combination of the fact that it's it's just really interesting and really cool to do, like, that once you're in there, you you want to keep working on it. I think the the fact that you know that you're working in this fundamental research, but also health related, that it can have an impact on society. And, of course, like, it will not be my algorithm in itself, which immediately impacts the whole society, but, like, you're one small radar in this whole framework, but you're aiming towards that. So the the fact that it's life science related, even though I don't have, like, background in that, I didn't study any biology, immunology, but the fact that you know that you can contribute to that field also gives me a lot of motivation. That's in the the the the the ultimate dream is, of course, that you help patients, right, that you make people's life better and and give them better opportunities for their health. And I'm very far away from that. I'm I'm I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not someone with a biological knowledge, but I know I can contribute to that. And that's that also would motivate me way mere more than, for example, optimizing advertisements or something like that, which indeed you could also do from the computer science point of view.
Peter O'toole:I'll I'll pick it up even more because actually, see, so many of the medical diagnosis are through flow cytometry itself that actually your analysis, the the new analyses that you're enabling on flow cytometry could have a profound impact. And so you say, yes, you're not a doctor in a clinic in a clinic a clinical doctor sense, but they are utterly dependent. All they do is take a sample and then tell the patient what you've enabled them to say. So I would say that, absolutely, you're a clinical doctor. You're the
Sofie Van Gassen:scientist. Reasoning in between somewhere as well. Right? No. No. But that that's exactly what I mean. Right? You know that that your work has an impact and that it can be used by these people who have the tools to then further interpret these things and and bring them to the patients, and that's that's really cool.
Peter O'toole:Actually, another question, and it strikes me. So throughout your PhD, now your postdoc at VIB, how many different groups are you getting data from?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, that's a that's an interesting question. I don't know if I've count counted that. So at the beginning, we were mainly collaborating with this the like, this one group that that my professor was already collaborating with. But this quick very quickly actually extended through collaborations, through meeting people who had questions. And I think it depends a bit also on on how you define it. So I think there's there's a number of groups that we're actively collaborating with. I would say that's, oh, yeah, a reasonable number, three, four, five, six, something like that. But then you also have many people reaching out with, like, a a similar question. Right? So I have, like, oh, I'm trying to use your tool, but we're encountering this or that. Can you give some advice? And that's actually, of course it it takes a smaller amount. Like, it's not a long term commitment, but that way we we get asked about lots of data from lots of different groups. And then once in a value, we're working also on some public data that also comes with its challenges. I'm a very strong advocate for making data public. I think this will really help the field. But just finding public data online where you don't know much about it and don't have insights about the metadata about what was going on while measuring things can also be an extra challenge. So I appreciate it a lot if the people with the biological question are also involved in the project rather than just working on data that is out there.
Peter O'toole:I think what's quite quite interesting is you're doing a postdoc, but it's it's not so dissimilar to a core facility in that your the number of people you're helping and advising. And, you know, at the top end of a core facility, you're helping design experiments. You're helping analyze the data, helping to really make their science fit around the technology. And here you are the other side of this downstream because then they get all this analysis. And and actually, from my side, I'm utterly useless when it comes to the coding side. And there you are to pick that up, which is a high end problems.
Sofie Van Gassen:Actually, that's that's an interesting question because that's kind of where I see my future going. I'm nothing nothing's on paper yet, but you can't keep doing postdocs forever. Mhmm. And I'm I don't have the ambition to go for a professor position at this point. Never say never, but I don't really expect that happening. So I think, right now, I'm mainly then giving guidance in the algorithm development and so on. I noticed that we also get lots of questions of users who want guidance in how to use these tools. And I'm actually talking to our flow core facility whether there could be options there to give more support also from the core facility and then have a a future position there, hopefully, if everything works out. So I think it's the
Peter O'toole:feedback through there, Kurt, that's running the core facility VIB. Exactly. I I I've I've got two lines of thought now. I don't know which way to take this in first. Firstly, I'd say, actually, not going down the academic route. So something we've done at York is set up a data science hub. And, really, I I would argue that they're applied academics. And I think this is really important because when it comes to helping with the the data science side, there's always talk about bringing new data science lecturers in to new group leaders in data science. But, naturally, they have their own niche area of data science that they want to develop, and that's not necessarily broadly applicable to the wide user base that would be using the flow of core at the VIB, for example. Whereas, actually, if you're more applied in the academic world, you certainly, you can develop new algorithms, new solutions, but you have a whole whole shop of different shelves to pick problems off and to work. And the problem is you you can't pick a mix. You have you you kind of have to be you you are you have to deal with what's put in front of you. But I I've gotta say, I think it's a vital role that's no less important than the primary academic. And certainly at York, we try to make that appear to peer that, you know, it's not academic in that you are writing your own grants necessarily, but you're co eyeing on grants. You're part of the grant team. You're part of the project team. They're very much an applied academic career in a technical setting. No.
Sofie Van Gassen:That's that's a really cool concept. I I would kind of argue that's well, not argue maybe, but the thing that if you're a good PI, you also look for these collaboration opportunities, and you look for possibilities to to work together and to actually see where your fields can contribute to the questions that that people are having as a as a data analyst researcher. I think that's also what I see happening in our group. So it's it's the case for the flow cytometry research we're doing, but we're also working on some other technologies, like, not me personally, but other people in our group with strength, cryptomics, cell cell communication, all these things, spatial things now also more and more. And I think that's also part of the the strength and the success of our group is that we're really looking of where are biologists asking questions, where are the boundaries of what's currently possible with the the the techniques that are out there now, and where where can we still contribute. And I think that's really what's yeah. As you would hope for that these other PIs would also aim to do rather than just staying focused on, like, I'm doing this one thing. Of course, you're do you have expertise in a specific topic, but then how can you apply that in the the setting where you are?
Peter O'toole:I I think that I I obviously, your professor was very much minded in that direction. I'm not sure. I I would say he's more the, exception than the rule, but but certainly not. I I we worked at York with someone called Julie Wilson who's exceptionally good at working with all sorts of people and was super useful for all of that. You know, she's just retired, which is gutting. But but it's very hard finding someone else who's equally minded to help in these areas. Yeah.
Sofie Van Gassen:And, of course, people have different mindsets about these things. That's that's true.
Peter O'toole:So so now we just need to make sure the VIB create that post and give you a.
Sofie Van Gassen:Fingers crossed. It's it's looking good so far. But yeah.
Peter O'toole:So the other question was, would you move out of flow data as well, just like the group has? Would you move into the imaging side? So working with, oh gosh, evelyn now, I think, isn't it, that's leading the call?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Peter O'toole:VIB or would it go with Evelyn and the transcriptomics data? Would you be looking at, you know, evolving or diversifying to not just flow cytometry but into the other technologies that are closely associated?
Sofie Van Gassen:So, of course, it's again the never say never. But in first instance and that's actually a bit what happened after my PhD as well. I I see a lot of my peers after they've done their PhD, either, like, go look for another challenge or they're saying, like, okay. This was now enough of this. Let's let's do something else. I felt like, okay. During my PhD, I've built up all this expertise, and it feels really nice to be able to use that and and to build on that. So I feel like that at this point, for sure, I can still contribute useful things to the cytometry field, and that's that also where maybe it's also part of just being a bit in your comfort zone sometimes. But that having that expertise also makes it easiest to to contribute there. We are maybe exploring, like, very slightly out of that boundary in the sense, like, now you have these s eight sorter, which also makes the images. So, okay, then you suddenly need a different set of techniques to to analyze these images as well. We're looking a bit at the the spatial proteomics maxima and so on. So, like, there's also some extension there, but my my main focus is still really cytometry. I think I'm yeah. I like I said, I was introduced to cytometry at the start of my PhD. I kind of fell in love with it. So I think for now, I'll I'll stick with cytometry as my main topic. I don't see me, like, suddenly completely switching to transcriptomics out of nowhere. And I think there are still quite a bit of challenges left in the cytometry field that's that there keeps being exciting puzzles there as well.
Peter O'toole:So I'm gonna take you back in time now to I I won't say which year. I know. Don't go years. But can you remember what the first job is that you ever wanted to be when you were really young? I know you were six, seven, eight, nine, 10. What was the first job that you thought, oh, I'd like to be that?
Sofie Van Gassen:When I was very, very little, I think I wanted to be a zookeeper or something like that. Right. I I liked seeing all these animals. And so I don't think that was a very realistic dream. I don't think we even had any pets at home except maybe a few fish. So I had absolutely zero experience with interacting with animals, but that seems very, very magical at the time. Then I think when I was around yeah. What will it be? 11, 12 years old? I I also had a a short period where I wanted to become, like, an Egyptologist or something like that. Yep. And then I I think looking back on that, that was more the the puzzle aspect of it, the the unreadable hieroglyphs and wanting to, like, solve these puzzles. And even though computer science is something very different, I think it's it's the puzzle solving aspect there that that intrigued me about these unknown things from history.
Peter O'toole:So what got you into computing computer science?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. That's actually the the the love for puzzles, for logic, for, yeah, reasoning about things, all the these kind of things. It's the things I had fun with, like solving math problems. These kind of things were quite fun, and that kind of got me there. And then while I was studying computer science, I noticed also that I really had the interest in machine learning, artificial intelligence, the data analysis aspects of it that was more intriguing to me than just, like, the computer architecture or or these kind of of topics that we have we're having courses on.
Peter O'toole:And where did you where was your degree, your first degree?
Sofie Van Gassen:Also in Ghent, so I I really stuck to
Peter O'toole:Oh, you're Ghent. Ghent. Ghent.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yes. Yes. Exactly. Like I was saying, it's a kind of exception that I'm still so close to where I've been all this time. I've been very lucky that I've had that opportunity.
Peter O'toole:That must have been Ugand and then on to VIB.
Sofie Van Gassen:Well so no. I'm I'm still I have the double affiliation. Right? So I'm still in Ugand. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So It's long time at UCan. That's basically been my main institute. I've I've done a a stay abroad of two months, and then I had another stay abroad of a few weeks. But, like, my actual main institute's always been UCan so far.
Peter O'toole:My undergraduate was also Essex, PhD Essex, first postdoc Essex. So I was so so so not so dissimilar. So so there's nothing
Sofie Van Gassen:It doesn't happen that often, I have the impression. I think it's it's I know I'm aware I've been very lucky to have that opportunity in academia where there's a lot of stress often on, moving abroad and all these things.
Peter O'toole:I think it's also lucky if you find yourself in the best research one of the best research groups. And so actually moving is instead of moving up because you're losing. You you you if you're in a really good established research group that is highly regarded, actually, the opportunities there are really good. And if they're really good supervisors and they let let your career flourish, then I think they're really good.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's for sure.
Peter O'toole:You're a VIB. You know, it it is a stunning resource. So and and New Guenth, and it's a lovely city.
Sofie Van Gassen:Absolutely. And I think it's also that's the more personal, but I like being relatively close to to family and friends. So moving abroad for a longer time, it's, yeah, been more challenging for me, I think.
Peter O'toole:So thinking about traveling, have you been you must have been to Saito. Yes. Yes. I think How many Saito's have you been to?
Sofie Van Gassen:Sorry?
Peter O'toole:How many Saito's have you been to?
Sofie Van Gassen:How many so my my first Cyto was Fort Lauderdale. I just looked it up. That was apparently in 02/2014. That was actually the first year of my PhD, and then we were very, very lucky because we there was one of these flow cap challenges, and I think it was actually the last one that's been. But there were there was, like, a a global call. We have this specific dataset and there's specific question about it. Please submit your your results for this, and then then we we can all learn from each other by doing that. And it was a really great experience. So we knew that the the results were were going to be discussed at that conference, which at that point was, like, still, for us personally, very unknown. Mhmm. But then we were welcomed so so warmly. It was really an amazing experience for me. I've been to some like, if you go to a bioinformatics conference, basically, everyone's working on transcriptomics, and you're just there explaining what cytometry is. Or if you go more to an immunology kind of thing where people know what cytometry is, but then they have no clue what these algorithms are. So you're really explaining that. Well, at Cyto, we're the other people who are making algorithms for cytometry. So that was absolutely a great experience. And I think I've been every year since then, except, of course, the the years of the pandemic. And then the first year after, then my son was still too small. So then I then I also stayed at home. That was Philadelphia. That's the one I missed. But, otherwise, I've been every year, and I think that's absolutely the highlight of the year. Yeah. I really enjoy Cyto a lot.
Peter O'toole:Is there still a data analyst meeting within each site. I don't go to that site, so I don't know. But is it if I look at the imaging side, there's always every now and then, we have a then we have a hackathon, and everyone just comes together and talks shop and solves the problem or looks at a few different things. Do we have that flow cytometry?
Sofie Van Gassen:So I don't think there's anything like a a hackathon upfront or anything like that, but it's very nice to see how the program is changing. Where before, there was then maybe one or two sessions about data data analysis software and so on. And then over the years, that's increasing and increasing, and now you can, like, completely fill your Cyto program just with data analysis related sessions. And that's that's nice to see also how how the impact on the on the community is changing with all the high parameter data being generated right now. People have more and more of a need for all these tools. So even even if you now go to a a more, whatever, other topic focused session, there will be probably be some discussion about the the algorithms used to tackle these issues, which you would not have had a few ten years ago. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:I'm too late for this year, obviously, because Denver's well well in well-being put into place. But I know in the imaging and the flow world in The UK, we have a flow cytometry facilities meeting. So all the flow staff we got the European virtual flow meeting where all the flow core staff meet. I don't know if you attended that this
Sofie Van Gassen:My my colleague participated. Sarah was there.
Peter O'toole:And then, like, microscopy similar. But, actually, wouldn't it be great to have a flow data science similar type of meeting where everyone just talks and talks about funding, how job recognition, career paths? Oh, actually, in The UK, we have something called the technology specialist network, and they they they look after those technology specialists, which includes data scientists, to make sure the career paths are now being properly developed because, you know, look, you're too young to know this, but twenty years ago, these jobs didn't really exist. And now they're they're very much at the forefront because they're pivotal now to underpin the science. They're they're absolutely vital. But then that's not necessarily the careers are being properly established. That's why I think we spoke about a bit earlier. You're an obvious person who needs to make sure of that. But even if you succeed, you then need to share that to make sure others can succeed within their institutes.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Sure. I think it it's something that's slowly becoming relevant. I think if you like, ten years ago, there were not enough people around doing computational cytometry to really or on that, and then it it's nice to be embedded in the larger conference. It's still nice to be embedded in the large conference. But I think there's more and more room for that where more and more people are actually working on this topic and and making great changes there. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:You can make a great pre congress meeting, though. So so if you think about it till that day zero with the pre congress on Saturday, Sunday, that would be an ideal session to bring everyone together to talk shop.
Sofie Van Gassen:Something something to think about. Yes. I I think what we're it's it's different, of course, in in AIM, but we're also last year, we, for the first time, organized this computational Cytometry summer school where we had a week that was the because Cytos was in Europe, we we kind of had that the week before. I also learned never organize something you're heavily involved with, like, the full week before Cytos. That's just too much for all the things you also want to be preparing for Saito, so that was a lot at the same time. But it was a lot of fun, and we're we're doing it again this year, not the week before Saito because Saito is in US anyway, so that's that wouldn't make sense. And, yeah, that's that's also fun to see how how many people are interested in learning these things and and how many people are are picking up all these tools and willing to their programming in R to be able to get things running. I think that's that's really cool to see. So that's also a very fun environment to be in. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:I I have a another question. So, actually, from my side, I had a PhD student called Lorva Wiggins with Will Brackenbury and Julie Wilson, who I mentioned earlier, who three different three different type of I'm the imaging cytometry person. I had someone with a biological question. That's Will. I had Julie who had the data science. Yeah. And Laura was a mastery computer science. Never done any biology just like yourself as well. Yeah. But one of the first things we did was get her in the lab and generate her own data as well. So, actually, have you been in the lab? Have you generated your own flight cytometry data?
Sofie Van Gassen:Have you generated your own data? It's maybe a bit too much of a stretch, but I did follow along. Like, a day in the lab, following along with someone, being allowed to do some of the noncrucial steps that can't really go wrong even if you're not fully sure of what you're doing kind of thing. And I think that's been very informative. I really appreciate it a lot. I've had that opportunity a few times by now. And every time you get more insights about how the data is generated, which does have an impact on your downstream analysis.
Peter O'toole:Mhmm.
Sofie Van Gassen:So I think that's absolutely crucial to understand what you're actually doing. Right? It's not just numbers. They're coming from somewhere. And I think on the one hand, to be aware, for example, which kind of quality control makes sense, which kind of quality control is needed, you get informed a lot by actually following along the experiments measurements. But on the other hand, one additional advantage of it is just to be able to talk to the researchers generating the data to understanding their point of view and also to be a bit more understanding sometimes. Maybe, like, we we can complain of, oh, why is it not perfectly standardized? Why is not everything typed exactly the same? And that till the points where you're following in the long in the lab and you're understanding, like, oh, wait. This is not so straightforward than it is for me afterwards when I'm seeing the data. So I will keep encouraging everyone to try to standardize things and so on, but it also helps a lot with understanding that what what happens in the lab is sometimes unpredictable, all these things. And and seeing that firsthand really makes a difference in in how you can treat that afterwards. Yeah. Absolutely.
Peter O'toole:You kind of answered my next question because it's exactly why we got Laura to get her own data so she can understand the provenance, the the limitations. Because I can imagine and you said sometimes it means you won't ask the users to do things that aren't really possible. And you get you understand why the data is frustrating because not everything in the data is as you want it to be just because biology doesn't allow it. I think you're absolutely right. So those days experience of what we've given you that that insight to understand that biology is pretty nonreproducible to a large extent.
Peter O'toole:Samples are very limiting. You can't get lots and lots. Sometimes it's very, very precious, and you get statistically challenging.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I think I think being aware of that and and the best way to become aware of it is seeing it firsthand really helps a lot in in how you tackle these things. I fully has
Peter O'toole:been the hardest time in your career to date? You you must be one of the youngest people I've ever done a podcast with, but there's always challenging times, especially early in the career. So when would you say the most challenging time has been?
Sofie Van Gassen:That's a good question. I think maybe one of the challenging time for me is, like, the switch from PhD to postdoc maybe or, like, the the short period after that. Because maybe also because I stayed in the same research group. Right? I kind of kept doing the same thing, but I was more and more guiding people. But that felt like not really doing my work because it was not like I still have, like, some own research projects, and then more and more also following along with other people and thinking along with them, which I enjoyed a lot, which is also why I'm still doing it, but which had sometimes a thing like, oh, but what did I actually do this week? My my whole week flew past, and I did not do anything, and then created a certain level of stress. And getting to reframe that in my head of, okay. But actually guiding these people is the main function I'm doing now, and it's okay that I don't get to programming in R every day of the week. So so that that's that's period where I was, like, slowly growing from one function to the other Mhmm. Came with some moments of stress for sure.
Peter O'toole:Okay.
Sofie Van Gassen:I
Peter O'toole:And I've got to ask so so those I know most people are listening to this, but if so I I I I can see Sofie's background. Is that a plate of peas as your background?
Sofie Van Gassen:I I I don't know. I'm in this meeting room here. I think it's some kind of moss. I mean, I I It
Peter O'toole:looks like a plate of mushy peas, and it's just a bit of wall art in the background.
Sofie Van Gassen:It's it's a bit of wall art that should represent moss, I think. I can I can put like, there's another one over there?
Peter O'toole:I've never seen that when I've been there.
Sofie Van Gassen:It's just how our meeting rooms here in the institute are decorated.
Peter O'toole:It's a complete digression. So you say you have a a daughter or a son?
Sofie Van Gassen:A son. A son. He's about three years old now. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:And how have you found managing the work life balance?
Sofie Van Gassen:I think it's actually relatively okay in the sense that I was already in the habit of not working too many hours from home. So I I stay quite strictly to my working hours for my job. Of course, there's always some exceptions if there's a specific deadline or whatever, but, like, I think compared to some colleagues and I think at some moments, I this also costs you stress. Like, should I be doing more hours? This or that. But then in the end, you notice, like, no. This is actually what is expected of me, and that that is fine. So in that sense, it's it's been quite quite doable. However, since this September, he started going to yeah. What do you call it in English? Kindergarten then, guess, but, like, a
Peter O'toole:Yeah.
Sofie Van Gassen:School. And then I don't know how this is abroad, but in Belgium so Wednesdays, they only go half a day, and then they could go to a kind of daycare solution in the afternoon, but I decided to go work for fifths. So I'm home on Wednesdays to to take care of him. And so that switch from working full time to four fifths has been a bit challenging because, actually, like, okay. You you I have quite a bit of control of what I'm doing with with my day, so I just need to learn to estimate better that you can't do everything you were doing in five fifths and four fifths. And so that that also comes with these challenges sometimes, like, where did this week go? It's already passed because you're you're missing a whole day every week. Right? But, otherwise, next to that, I think it's it's been quite okay. Yeah. And I I also have the feeling that that we're in a very, how how to say it, accepting environment. Like, people are understanding if you need to leave early a day or you need to suddenly miss a day because the kid is sick and you need to be at home or things like that. Like, people are flexible about these things, and they're understanding about these things. So that's that's, again, being a good place to be at here in the institute for sure.
Peter O'toole:So I asked about the most challenging times. You talked about more challenges there. What about the if you could go back and relive any one year, which year would you go and relive?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, a specific year to relive.
Peter O'toole:Well, it doesn't have to be the year itself.
Sofie Van Gassen:Doesn't have to be No. No. But, like The
Peter O'toole:first year of the AC, the first year is your postdoc, the year you've just had, the year you went to Saito, what what was the most fun year that you think, wow, that was a blast.
Sofie Van Gassen:That's a difficult question. I think every year's come every year comes with some some ups and some downs, and I'm I'm for sure also looking forward to the future. So I'm I'm not one of these persons of, like, the the the best is in the past or something like like, the the best is yet to come, hopefully. But I think, like, the probably the start of my PhD would be the the moment I would refer to where you're just starting to explore all these things. You have quite a bit of freedom in in all the things you're doing. You don't have too many commitments yet that you you need to uphold. So, yeah, if I have to pick something, I would say that, but it's certainly not that I'm that I'm here like, oh, I wish I could go back there. No. I'm I'm very happy to just keep moving forward.
Peter O'toole:So my next I'm gonna ask some quick fire questions.
Sofie Van Gassen:Okay.
Peter O'toole:Okay? So are you an early bird or an ITALM?
Sofie Van Gassen:Slowly becoming more and more early bird. Would have been different a few years ago.
Peter O'toole:PC or Mac?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, PC.
Peter O'toole:Yeah. Oh, okay. McDonald's or Burger King?
Sofie Van Gassen:I've never been to Burger King. McDonald's sometimes, but also not very often. So I'm okay with neither. Like, don't need that either.
Peter O'toole:You have a three year old that will that will go up in numbers. Sure. What is your favorite takeaway then? What's your favorite fast food, your favorite takeaway?
Sofie Van Gassen:When I was young, would have said Chinese, but now I'm eating vegetarian. And at least here in Belgium, you don't have that many many options there. So now I probably just go for fries.
Peter O'toole:Good. Oh, I'd choose Belgium, I suppose.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. It's all traditions to a pulse. Right?
Peter O'toole:One of the two. Tea or coffee?
Sofie Van Gassen:Tea, for sure.
Peter O'toole:Chocolate or cheese?
Sofie Van Gassen:Would miss both a lot if they would not be there. Let's say cheese wins.
Peter O'toole:Okay. Beer or wine?
Sofie Van Gassen:Neither. I don't drink any alcohol.
Peter O'toole:No. And you're in the land of trapeze beers. Oh, of any country. It's the one country you'd have to have beer. Make
Sofie Van Gassen:some for it with the chocolate.
Peter O'toole:With what is your favorite food?
Sofie Van Gassen:Favorite food? It's also a difficult question. I think it it's I like variety, like, not having to eat the same thing every day. I don't have a very strongly spoken favorite there.
Peter O'toole:Is there any food you really dislike other than obviously meat? But is there any food that you the taste just imagine you went to Saito and you went for the evening meal, and that was on the menu to go, oh, no. How am I gonna eat that?
Sofie Van Gassen:I'm trying to come up with something. No. I I think the main disappointment was be like, oh, there's no vegetarian option or things like that. But yeah.
Peter O'toole:Do you like to eat in or eat out?
Sofie Van Gassen:I enjoy eating out. Yeah. We don't do it that often, but, yeah, then the times it happens, it's nice.
Peter O'toole:Would you rather cook or clean?
Sofie Van Gassen:Preferably neither, but if I have to, I choose, I guess cleaning. I'm not I'm not not the best cook.
Peter O'toole:So is you a part of the cook at the house?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:Yeah? And what's their signature dish?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, I don't know. I think
Peter O'toole:What's the what's the favorite dish that he they cook for you?
Sofie Van Gassen:Also a good question. I think there's it's it's also just the variety. We're also, like he it's also not that his big ambition is is is cooking or his big passion is cooking, so we're kind of just making do with easy dishes that are ready quickly. And that's why we then enjoy eating out once in a while, right, when neither of us have to cook.
Peter O'toole:Because my next question so that was going to be which what what is it cooked that you least like?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. I also don't have a very specific answer to that. I think it's it's I'm sorry. I'm very bad with the names of I'm just trying get
Peter O'toole:you into trouble because you'll probably watch this back. And you'll go, why you never told me you didn't like that? And then you forget it again. Oh, there was your I think you guys never have it again.
Sofie Van Gassen:Sorry?
Peter O'toole:There was your opportunity to say something, and you never have to eat that again.
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, yeah. No. I don't think there's anything like that. That's that's still on the menu list right now.
Peter O'toole:TV or book?
Sofie Van Gassen:Books, for sure. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:What are you reading at the moment?
Sofie Van Gassen:I think the last thing I read was a very silly rom com genre book, but then before that, some nice science fiction. So a balance of those, let's say, in general. And once in a while, a non fiction book, but that's that's only once in a while, mainly fiction. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:Okay. And what's your favorite film? Favorite movie?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, that's also a very difficult question. Maybe my answer can be more that it's really been quite a long time since I watched any movies. Like, the the question from, like, television or books was a very easy question. I really don't watch a lot of television. But
Peter O'toole:you must come on. It was Mont before Edinburgh. It was Montreal. Surely, you watched movies on the plane.
Sofie Van Gassen:Not that I remember right now, but probably something, but nothing that that's stuck enough to to remember right now. And the probability, like, actually, on a on a plane that I just sleep the whole time is also quite probable.
Peter O'toole:Well, you could sleep on long haul flights.
Sofie Van Gassen:I I think I don't know which one it was. It was coming back from The States, but, like, it was not Montreal. It was already longer ago. But we're I just, like I was not fully awake yet anymore, I think, when we still had to lift off, and then we landed, and we were there. I kind of missed
Peter O'toole:all of flights. We're on the East Coast meetings then. So
Sofie Van Gassen:it's Probably. Probably. Yes.
Peter O'toole:Wilson Hall. Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek?
Sofie Van Gassen:I think I've seen more Star Wars than Star Trek, but I'm not strongly big fan of either. And and and I think probably from the reasoning point of view, I would prefer Star Trek over Star Wars.
Peter O'toole:Okay. Music. What's what's your favorite music style?
Sofie Van Gassen:Oh, actually, I'm listening more and more to classical music lately, which as a I didn't really do as a as a teenager or something, but, like, lately, that's bringing back some calm and some nice memories from Sunday mornings as a kid and so on. While then you think, like, oh, why can't we listen to my more fun music rather than the boring, grow up music? But I'm really getting back to that more and more now. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:Favorite color?
Sofie Van Gassen:Let's say green.
Peter O'toole:Vixi green or GFP green?
Sofie Van Gassen:What?
Peter O'toole:Vixi green or GFP?
Sofie Van Gassen:No. That's, like therefore, I'm too far away from the instrument to to have an ounce of medicine.
Peter O'toole:Okay. So moving moving on. Who would you say has been your biggest inspiration in your career so far?
Sofie Van Gassen:That's also a difficult question. Right? I think just in general, all the computational cytometrists, so all the people at CyTO that are really showing what change algorithms can make, I'm thinking of Brian Brinkman, Nima, all the all these people that this many of them have been a big inspiration for sure of of believing that this is a field, like that it's okay to focus on this one field of cytometry and trying to see what difference we can make there. And then I think otherwise, and it's maybe a bit more vague, but all the the people who show me that the work can have an impact to all the the people I'm collaborating with. And then I'm actually also thinking in particular of Gerd, so our our the the head of our core who's always there and just saying, yes. We need these kind of things. That's for sure also been a big inspiration.
Peter O'toole:And and but Dirt's a big name in the flow world as well. So I I guess and you've been there a fair while. So and he's developed his name very strongly since he's been with the VIB.
Sofie Van Gassen:So I I think it like, my first title was also his first Saito as far as I'm aware.
Peter O'toole:So I can imagine anyone new going to VIB now might find it quite intimidating just because he's such a big name, whereas, actually, he's he's he's lovely. He's really cool.
Sofie Van Gassen:That's what I would say as well. Yeah. Yeah. No no need to be intimidated. I think we're we're all very happy for new people to learn about all these things, to start exploring these things, to have fun with it, to do amazing discoveries with cytometry.
Sofie Van Gassen:Absolutely.
Peter O'toole:To ask inspirations, does is there any what's your biggest motivation? What motivates you? Who motivates you? What motivates you?
Sofie Van Gassen:Think my motivation, if I, like, look back on things, is mainly having other people being happy with things. So so seeing people being able to use the tools that I developed, like seeing Flowsome popping up on on work of people I've never heard of, that that's amazing knowing that you contributed something. And then also just in the collaborations, I think if I have to do work on my own just for myself, I'm a whole lot less motivated than if it's a group effort or I know that someone else is involved who also cares about the project. That's that makes a big difference for me.
Peter O'toole:If this was an interview to work in the core facility, you'd be doing very well with that answer. It's very much about
Sofie Van Gassen:That's also why I was thinking. Like, this seems seems like a good good option if that could become possible. Right? That's that's the kind of thing I'm getting excited about.
Peter O'toole:Do you have any pet hates? What what annoys you? What little things annoy you? Not necessarily in work in life in general. What are your pet hates?
Peter O'toole:What things annoy you?
Sofie Van Gassen:That's a good question. I think when when people are too too strict or or, like, don't have enough empathy for someone else where they're, like, getting very, like, oh, why doesn't this person do yeah. But you need to hear their part of the story as well. Right? And there's probably a good reason and things like that or or where there's, like yeah. I don't know. People being very like, oh, but this is the way it should be done, and this is can be the only way. And then yeah. But in some situations, there is a good reason for an exception or these kind of things. So so being too strict in that sense, I think, would be the main thing that comes to mind.
Peter O'toole:I I quite like that because that's almost having an intolerance to intolerance.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. But that's that's I think that's that's that's fair. I think that's a good thing. That's the one thing to be intolerant about is too much intolerance. I think that's a good
Peter O'toole:Yeah. No. I I a few inches. Actually, I I fully agree. Yeah. I I find intolerant.
Sofie Van Gassen:Reassuring to hear.
Peter O'toole:Yeah. So outside of work, what hobbies do you do?
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. So we already mentioned books. I like reading quite a bit. Since I since we, like, have our own house, I also quite like gardening. My my parents had a very nice garden with lots of flowers and so on, and I was never really actively involved in that as a kid. I was mainly, like, somewhere inside reading a book. But then once once I moved on my own, it was like, yeah, if if I don't do anything in the garden, there will not happen anything in the garden. And then then I really started enjoying that as well. So that was also very nice to, like, more reconnect with my mom in in that sense. Yeah. And think that would be the main two things right now. Yeah. And, of course, enjoying time with family with my cats. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:You said you don't have pets, so your garden's gonna be easier to maintain.
Sofie Van Gassen:No. So I have a cat. I have a cat. Yeah. Yeah. We still got it, like, five years ago.
Peter O'toole:Okay. So what sort of garden is it? Is it sort of plants? Is it shrubs? Is it trees? Is it is it are you growing
Sofie Van Gassen:in the community? Where we're currently living, it's a quite small garden, but it's fully plants with with plants. So there's there's no lawn. It's it's all, yeah, mainly smaller plants, a few edible things, but also not that like, I do that for the fun of it, that it's fun to make some like, to grow something that you can eat, but not for, like, our daily function or anything. That's more as a as a hobby project than as an actual goal of not having to go to the supermarket kind of thing. But so, yeah, lots of flowers, things like that. We will move in yeah. Still still quite a while to go. But then we'll have a bigger garden, so then we'll be able to combine some lawn with hopefully still lots of plants as well. So
Peter O'toole:excellent. That's
Sofie Van Gassen:And then maybe even some room for trees. We'll see. Yeah. So some smaller trees should for sure be possible then as well.
Peter O'toole:So I like your future. You're already thinking about house, what that's gonna be like. The garden is obviously a big prerequisite. If I was to ask you, if you're coming up to time, if I was to ask you, what what would you see as the biggest challenge in the world of data science and flow cytometry? Where would what would you like to see be solved? What would you like to be easier? Any of those.
Sofie Van Gassen:In in in cytometry. Right? And I I think, actually, maybe this is a very nice moment to give a shout out to the SoulCAP initiative, where we're trying to standardize the annotation of cytometry data, and I really very strongly believe in that. So right now, everyone has their own gating strategy. And when one person is talking about the certain cell type, they might mean something else than someone else talking with a population with the same name. And then especially with all the clustering and so on, it's also like, okay. You have a cluster result, but which cells are these now? It's that's still a whole other question. So I think that's one of the big next questions to be solved. And if anyone would be interested to working on this with the SoulCAP initiative, we were really making a a huge effort at this, and we would be very happy for anyone to be involved in that. So then for sure reach out about it. That would be great.
Peter O'toole:Are you on any of the ISAC committees?
Sofie Van Gassen:I'm on the data committee. It has not been very active lately. I hope that that will pick up again at some point. I was also on a task force at some point about site to you when all the webinars were going to be labeled and so on, so I I helped a bit with the the data science related ones there. Yeah. But so main mainly the data committee. And then now there's also this task force being started about more about the data analysis education, so more fitting in the the flow contents committee there. I'm also excited about that, bringing more awareness about the algorithms to all the people using them who are now maybe just clicking a button without really knowing what they're doing. So so bringing that message across is also exciting.
Peter O'toole:There's quite a lot of potential there.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Exactly. So
Peter O'toole:that's what we're doing those things at the moment.
Sofie Van Gassen:That's what we're we're trying to make happen. Exactly.
Peter O'toole:Take it. Grab it. And and go
Sofie Van Gassen:for it. Yeah. Exactly. That's that's that's why the the subcommittee or task force or whatever it's called. It's, it's it's being being started right now. Yeah.
Peter O'toole:And do you know what task forces, I think, could be better than committees? Because task forces are far are liberated. They don't have the bureaucracy of a committee. They can just get on and do an action and actually deliver things much better.
Sofie Van Gassen:I think there's there's value in both. Right? So you
Peter O'toole:you Yeah. Yeah. No.
Sofie Van Gassen:I think you need to you need to have both. But it's true. Like, I think with the the task forces are more actionable. Right? You you you have a concrete plan, and you go for it, and then and then it gets done while the committees are a bit more on on long term vision and these things. So it's, yeah, it's two different things that both have a lot of value, I think, for the community.
Peter O'toole:So, Sofie, I think I've come to to the time point for the podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Everyone who's listened, watched, thank you for your do go back and look at the other Flowstars. Sophie mentioned Ryan Brinkman. Go go listen to his podcast. He was, absolutely brilliant. You've heard about Isaac and Saito, and, we've got Virginia Litwin, as one of the co guests of this season that you're listening to now. But you can go back and listen to previous presidents such as Jessica Houston, Johnny Moore, Paul Smith, Paul Robinson, oh, Wallace, the lot of them. But, Sophie, today, god, it's exciting having you in the world, isn't it, Flow Cytometry? I think we're so fortunate to have yourself and others like you really come to the fore and putting your expertise in our world for data science and being passionate about it. And I really hope you get that job in the call because I think you'd be brilliant at it. Sofie.
Sofie Van Gassen:Yeah. Thank you so
Peter O'toole:very much.
Sofie Van Gassen:Thanks so much for having me, especially in this long list of names. It feels like a bit intimidating to be among all those great names, but it it was a very nice opportunity. Thanks so much.
Peter O'toole:It's a pleasure. It would have been great to have them at this stage of their career. So this is why this is so important. Sophie, thank you.
Sofie Van Gassen:Thanks so much.
