Virginia Litwin (International Society For Advancement of Cytometry)
Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations between doctor Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of flow cytometry brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite Size Bio.
Peter O'Toole:Today, Virginia Litwin, president-elect president of ISAC, joins me and she discusses the importance of diversity in science. Setting up CyTOWomen to advocate for equal opportunities which has done so well with in flow cytometry. And her passion for standardization to support clinical research. All this coming up in Flowstars. Hi. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York, and welcome to this edition of Flow Stars. And today, I'm joined by, Virginia Litwin, who is president-elect of Isaac. How are you today, Virginia?
Virginia Litwin:I moved to Quebec a few years ago, so, randomly, I I I just I had to learn French, and so, randomly, I will speak French. Sorry.
Peter O'Toole:No. That's okay. Actually, ISAC was over Cyto, rather. So for those who aren't aware, Saito is a big conference organized by ISAC. It is the big flow cytometry conference. It was over there not that long ago, wasn't it?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. Yes. Two years ago. Completely independent of of my being here. Oh, no. Last year. Last year. 2023. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Yes. Yeah. Montreal. Montreal. Yeah. Yes. So, which which was my first time to Montreal?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, it's lovely, isn't it?
Peter O'Toole:It it was really good. It's really friendly, actually. I find it very welcoming. Mhmm. Mhmm. Was a although it wasn't in their winter, and I've heard in their winter, it could be quite cold.
Virginia Litwin:Oh, it it's lovely. It's lovely. We have, about two feet of snow right now, and I I I debated about changing my background here to a picture. I live in the country, so of my snowy backyard, but I I couldn't let go of my Saito women, backdrop, which hopefully is still showing. Yes?
Peter O'Toole:It is absolutely showing. So, actually, so it is interesting you chose the background of Saito women. So what what for those who aren't aware, what is Cytowomen?
Virginia Litwin:Great. Yes. So Cytowomen is a committee within Cytowomen or ISAC, and, I was the first chair. So Johnny Moore, before she became president of ISAC, she, put forth this idea to have a committee to to address the unique challenges for women and opportunities and biases and things like that. And so Sight of Women was formed, and she asked me to be the first chair. And since this is informal, I will tell you my nephew's an artist, and so I hit him up to do the logo.
Peter O'Toole:So I've never really appreciated the face in the logo.
Virginia Litwin:Yes. It's it's to be the idea was to be more ethnically ambiguous. And so when we formed the first Cyto women committee, I I picked a broad diversity of women geographically, ethnically, age, so point in our career, and, it was really, really fun to to start.
Peter O'Toole:This this might be a difficult question. What would you say is your most the proudest achievement that Cyto women has achieved to date? That's a difficult question, isn't it? I I I would say while you're thinking about that then that play cytometry is one of the is probably one of the best represented male female ratio of most of the technologies out in life sciences. I I certainly in The UK, you go to them, the number of female attendees is really high as a proportion. The courses that we run at York, actually, unusually, is predominantly ladies, women that attend Mhmm. The the the courses over the men. That that's not because women think that it used to be the other way around, and I've noticed a big change in the last twenty years. How actually flow cytometry is a very welcome environment, I think, for female and other diversities compared to many others.
Virginia Litwin:I think so. I think so. I do have a friend here, my, local BFF who's a an engineer, and, that is still predominantly, male and and maybe less less welcoming, certainly. Yeah. And when I was in graduate school, there were, my class, if you will. So we were immunology and, virology, and most of us actually were women at that point. So
Peter O'Toole:So I've given you a bit of time to think about maybe the biggest achievement of cyto women.
Virginia Litwin:I I think it was getting it off the ground, really. And we had at at CYTO twenty twenty one, I believe it was our second remote CYTO, we sponsored a viewing of the movie Picture Scientist. And if you haven't seen it, I totally recommend it. And I think it's available on Netflix now. So what we did there is we had to purchase the the access to the film, and then people could log in if you went to the conference and and view the film. And then we had discussion groups afterwards. We had I don't know if you remember that conference, but we had lounges. Right? Like, we called them virtual lounges. And the discussions in there were really excellent. And in that watching the film, I would have said going into it, oh, I've never experienced, you know, any, you know, challenges for being a women a woman in my career. And as I watched that, I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so, it it just bringing that awareness. And I still have some colleagues, one friend in particular who's been a tremendous mentor to me, and he's, older than myself, and just doesn't understand why why we would have sight of women and finds it insulting. And I think he's the only person that I've encountered that has said that, but I think opening up that dialogue of why we need to look at the point of view of other people and and why we need to be diverse. And I think for me, personally, that is what Sightedwoman has has has brought to me.
Peter O'Toole:And any significant I suppose I suppose that the individual you're talking about was one of the challenges because you're you're being challenged by them for the for the remit. But do you did you meet any other obstacles along the way?
Virginia Litwin:I think a little bit being taken seriously. I mean, you can't tell on the video, but I'm small. And so I I think being, you know, taken seriously, treated as an adult I I I I have. Yes. And, you know, of course, I'm welcome physical advances type of thing. Yeah. And from big to small. Right? From being told you didn't need to participate in a meeting even though you were the subject matter expert at your company. So and this wasn't this was too recently to be acceptable, but being told you just needed to sit there and look pretty when you were the subject matter expert. So it's yeah. It's there.
Peter O'Toole:And that that was in in in an industrial setting, I presume, commercial setting?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So yes, and and my first job out of college, the it was it was a great lab. I mean, I've learned so much from that lab head, but he later told me that someone else suggested he didn't hire me as a technician. He hired three technicians. And of the three, I'm the one that remained in science and so scientifically, most successful. But someone else at the university said, don't hire her. It's just a pretty distraction. So, yeah, the the things I don't think about, I I don't but watching that movie opened my eyes to that or my recollections. And what I'm hoping is that did that for other people as well. It's like, maybe that is not the correct way to to treat someone. Or yeah.
Peter O'Toole:It's hard to know where to go from that because that's pretty shocking, isn't it?
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. So
Peter O'Toole:I I I and I guess coming from a male background, I don't get to witness that side very often. So Yeah. Anyway, so it's a very good reason to have sight to women, isn't it?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. Yes. And I think also just that that we had just the whole diversity for for all groups. What what do different backgrounds bring to the table? The way of thinking, what do, what are obstacles that other people face. So just having that extra awareness has has been tremendous. And keeping with this, I had the privilege to attend the Australasian society meeting in twenty twenty two or three. I'm sorry. And we had a side of women's session at that, and we had had some discussions, and we had a presenter for a Full Stop Australia, which was addressing sexual harassment. And we had then a panel discussion on that, and so much came out from the the panelists and then other even men in in the audience were were sharing stories. And it didn't, you know, it didn't stop at sexual harassment, just other obstacles that people faced. And afterwards, I mean, I was so drained like I have never been after a talk. So I think that awareness is has been a the success for SITO women. Can we
Peter O'Toole:Moving off the cyto women path. You said that you actually you faced some of this in an industrial setting. So where where have you worked?
Virginia Litwin:Okay. I I started out. I I I I knew I wanted to do biology, and I I knew I wanted to do human biology. But beyond that, I I had not found my my niche when I, graduated from university. And I ended up working with a, an an immunologist, John Van Bockel, and he was just a great teacher. And and and so I I just fell in love with immunology, and then, we were doing microscopy with the I think you mentioned you had a microscope, fluorescent microscopy. Flow was still pretty new then. And then I I ended up getting a job at UCLA, which was one of the leading, groups in clinical cytometry, but it was just cytometry in those days.
Peter O'Toole:This was was this after your PhD at Iowa?
Virginia Litwin:No. Before. Before.
Peter O'Toole:Okay.
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. So in The US, it's not that unusual to be a technician and work for a bit before going back. I know in Europe, you you might go straight through. And so it was that group. I I was the technician for a lot of postdocs. We were doing flow cytometry. It sounds like nothing at the time, but that was the group that asked the first question because we're studying AIDS. What are c d four levels in human t cells or in in humans? What are the level of c d four t cells? And so I and that group became, like, my second family and supported me through graduate school. And they were, Vy, you should go to graduate school. And so they sort of pushed me, forward to do that. And so I've used FLOW my my whole career, and it's been a variety of virology or immunology studies.
Peter O'Toole:What was your first place cytometer?
Virginia Litwin:It was I think it was at at at UCLA, so I I only stained the samples and brought them up. And, it's embarrassing now because, you know, I'm a leader in slow standardization and record keeping and all of that, but it actually I I left my samples and, yes, indeed, on a paper towel, I had wrote what I stained them with and left it in the flow lab. And later that paper towel came up in a meeting, and it was like, no. No. This is not acceptable. But I think I don't know. It was a it was a single laser three color maybe at at UCLA. They were working with Janice Georgie was, the the lab head there for Flow, and we worked with BD a lot collaboratively. Collaboratively. So
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So probably a would that be a caliber either at that point?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, no. No. No. No. No. Not even a fax four because I think I I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Wow. Okay. So what's the first cytometry that you used that
Virginia Litwin:you have? Well, again, in graduate school, I I went to the flow core, and it was, but when I did my postdoc with Lucia here at DNx, we had, the bench top model, which was, I think, the fax four. What was it called? But we did had a a a benchtop mount model.
Peter O'Toole:Okay.
Virginia Litwin:And then I, when I was at Bristol Myers, we we bought a sorter, and I bought a Vantage. And then later, I bought a Caliber and then Kanto. So yeah. And I've just bought four, a five SEs. So it's Yep. The world.
Peter O'Toole:That's a fair few. So so you then went on to a PhD? Mhmm. The wife so what happened so after your PhD, what did you do after your PhD? Was it straight into industry?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, no. No. I went to I went to DNx, which I don't know if you're familiar with, but it was then a, research institute owned by Sharon Plough, but completely independent. And DNx is where, Tim Masman and Bob Hopman worked and t h one, t h two concepts came out of there. They cloned I l 10. They cloned GM CSF, identified I l 10. So it was just a great collaborative place to do research. We had a immunology section and molecular. And and so we were funded by Sharing Plough, so we weren't having to, do grants, and it was not at all competitive or or cutthroat. And I I worked, in Lewis and Lanier's lab, who will be our, keynotes, our hook lecture at at CyTO twenty twenty five. And he was studying NK cells, which is I worked on on NK cells when I was a technician at UCLA and also Fc receptors. My graduate work focused on Fc receptors. So it was, I did research there, and it in the Bay Area, it was a lot of us went from there into biotechs more than into, academia. Yep. So that's I went to a biotech and then to Bristol Myers and then to a contract research organization where I was then that's when I quit using Los Altamji as a research tool, and it was now, I I got more focused into the the the technology, and I had to learn standardization and validation of flow cytometry.
Peter O'Toole:Which, if I'm honest, it's probably it's gonna be probably the for me, one of the least interesting aspects of a role is that standardization. And, yeah, I presume you have a real passion for standardization.
Virginia Litwin:I do, and it is not at all the least interesting. So, I gave a talk recently, and and talking about, you know, how do you do rare events. I bet you think rare events are interesting. Right?
Peter O'Toole:No. I'm with you. Come on.
Virginia Litwin:Okay. So it it's everything you've ever heard at a cyto meeting goes into a rare event assay. You need to start with a fully optimized assay, how we should optimize it today, not how we did in the last century, where you are really optimizing your signal. You are are going to be able to, identify dim, events and rare events. And then you need to make sure you have the proper gating and the proper fluorophores. And, then you need to understand what's the variation of my assay and and how low can I how how few of events can I reproducibly measure? And how do I know that I have only those events in my my gait and not everything else? Bad comp, bad doublets, bad spread. So no. No. Standardization is is is everything put together.
Peter O'Toole:And fundamentally, vitally important, especially with the contract research agencies that you're working for.
Virginia Litwin:Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:My goodness. They have to be on the ball and and near perfect.
Virginia Litwin:And that's so when I started bring, working at Bristol Myers, I was doing the phase one clinical trials, and that was I mean, I think a lot of people thought, oh gosh. Working at a pharma would be, like, not fun for a scientist. But it was really exciting because we were I was doing the biomarker assays for the first in man trials, mostly for oncology, some, immunological diseases as well. And it was really exciting to see the patients respond, what new target are we hitting, and and how can I support that with my, biomarker assay? So
Peter O'Toole:So it really is it's very close to frontline, isn't it? Because you're getting very close to direct impact.
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. Yes. And then it's it's so for people that aren't here, it's I latched on to the idea of, you know, translational science, translational medicine. So if you're starting in a research lab and in fact, the things I did in my postdoc are now going in in into therapies. So you wanna make sure that your data is as robust as possible so that if someone takes it to that next phase in translational science, that it's repeatable, and and it can move on.
Peter O'Toole:So within those roles, you've you're obviously a big advocate for not being in the academic world that does a great role outside the academic roles and the environment. What would you say the biggest advantage is being out working outside of academia?
Virginia Litwin:I I I don't I don't know. I mean, with my role at ISAC, my new role, I I do I'm the first ISEC president that's not from academia. So I do interact with a lot of the, academics. I don't I don't know. I think probably for me, it's it's having that impact. So can I have an impact on the program? Can I can I help our our my clients do a better assay? Can I help that drug? A lot of people say, over in a CRO, you know, our our goal is the patient. And for me, it's the drug. I I want that drug to go forward, and I want to if it's if it should. And I wanna support it so that the regulatory agencies can make the right decision about that drug, which ultimately will help people. So for for me, it's it's that that impact, but it's it's not to say you don't have it in academia. So
Peter O'Toole:It it does Cyto actually have a a section or a meeting for commercial flow cytometrists?
Virginia Litwin:We have I think I did my first workshop at Saito in 2013, and, and I think a lot of people were surprised that, yes, this is interesting, or people in, pharma and and CROs are are doing interesting work. And so we've had, workshops almost every every year since. Mhmm. We we do have a flow group within the American Association of Pharmaceutical Scientists. But I think what we're doing we're well represented at ISAC, and we the standardization, the validation, we're we're bringing that forward. But it's it doesn't need to be a separate group. I
Peter O'Toole:it it was just thought so the Royal Microscopical Society, we don't we don't have anything to that side of it, although we got, obviously, industrial people on the different sections. Mhmm. But there's this, there's a movement in The UK called Elrig, which
Virginia Litwin:Oh, yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So so which is not for profit, but it's commercially orientated for people in pharma, biotech Mhmm. Standards and brings in academia as well, it sort of hybridized them, but has a very much focus, on that biopharma side. So I just didn't know if there's anything equivalent to the state to where the site could could look at that across across the pond.
Virginia Litwin:Elrig. Yeah. Possibly.
Peter O'Toole:It's it's just a thought while we're talking. Mhmm. On another side. So, actually, I I I obviously, this is very organic. I did I did have to I've I've never met you before in person, so this is amazing. But what I was blown away by is just how many different, societies that you're involved with as well. So, obviously, CyTO in a very, Isaac in a very big way. But also the APPS, so the American Association of Pharmaceutical, Scientists, ICCS as well on there. So you're on the advocacy committee for that. You're on the, oh, community section for every why so many societies?
Peter O'Toole:Why active on so many societies?
Virginia Litwin:I think so going back to my first, job in pharma where our our lab head was was forward thinking enough to bring in, my role. And so I was doing the cell and molecular biomarker assays, and he wanted to bring up flow cytometry. And then, really, he was paralyzed by the, flexibility of the technology. And that's where not really in a in a the nicest, easiest way, but I was sort of pushed in the deep end of the pool to learn standardization. And I went to my first ISAC, and I was complaining. And Joanne Lanigan said, Virginia, he's right. And and ISAC had just well, there was no clinical cytometry then. So there then split. So there was a big movement on standardization, and so I don't know. I I guess what you're saying is I I needed to pull when you're doing biomarkers, you're not clinical and you're not research. So you're pulling from both. And then friend from UCLA, John Ferguson, I started a group within, AAPS, the the flow cytometry group, because we thought, okay. We wanna push the industry to talk about how should we validate flow cytometry methods and how can we use this technology to support drug development. And so we picked the AEPS because we thought they were more aligned with the the regulatory agency. And then at one point, someone at the FDA told me, no. Just do a clinical standards, guidance document. Just take that information after you've written all those papers, and maybe then we'll pay attention to you. So that's it's sort of I guess, you know, we're we're chimeric here. We need a little bit of reach.
Peter O'Toole:So what's your favorite society?
Virginia Litwin:Well, I said no.
Peter O'Toole:It's a bit was a loaded question, wasn't it? So how are you looking forward to becoming president?
Virginia Litwin:I I I think I've settled in the role. At first, I I was just a little bit it was a little bit too daunting. You know? We're we're we're vocal. We have a lot of, brilliant people, and, so I was a little bit overwhelmed. But now I I think I realized what my skill set is that will be of a benefit to the society. And so, yeah, I'm I'm I'm really looking forward to it. And and that is to some of the past presidents talk to me pretty often and, you know, really passionate about keeping the society moving forward in all our diversity. Right? The engineers, the the programmers, the SRL, the researchers, the the pharma people. And so I I just want to make sure we have a big tent and everyone benefits and the society and the technology grows.
Peter O'Toole:So what do see as the biggest challenge for for Isaac going forward?
Virginia Litwin:Well, I I think we we're in a good we're in a good place now. You know, we went a few years ago from being a managed society, and now we're have independent management. And that's been you know, nothing is as straight exponential curve there. So I think as we continue to grow and bring in new members and bring in diverse members. Right? So Mhmm. I think that's our challenge. I think we'll do it for sure, but that that's it. It's bringing in younger people, getting really good scientific diversity in our tent.
Peter O'Toole:I probably have changed subject completely now. I heard how you got into science. You want to do human biology with your first degree, which I think was Santa Barbara. If I take you back to when you were six, seven, eight, nine, 10, those very early days, can you remember what the first job was that you ever wanted to do, what you wanted to be?
Virginia Litwin:Probably a ballerina, but I really wasn't very good. You know?
Peter O'Toole:It's a good answer, though. From a ballerina, was it straight to a scientist? What did you was there any intermediate steps you're thinking, oh, I quite fancy that job?
Virginia Litwin:No. I I think that was it. You know? I have more talent in this the science world. But and I I think for me also, it was it was very obvious for me that's where my aptitude was. And much as I I love ballet, I wasn't really the
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin:The the best. You know? So
Peter O'Toole:That's a good answer. And you're still dancing through your career, so arguably, it's not so far off. It's just in a different way. If you could do any job for a day over a week, a day in the life of another job, not inside not not in clinical or academia. What job would you like to, sample? What would you like to try?
Virginia Litwin:I've never thought of that.
Peter O'Toole:Have you never looked at someone who's working and think, oh, I'd love to know what it's like to work alongside them or to do that job? Or
Virginia Litwin:No. I it becomes obvious to me jobs I couldn't do. Like, I write a lot, but, like, journalists have to I'm fairly good writer, I think. But I I mean, I am slow. Every word is just a pain. It's a slow birth. And journalists, I think, gosh. They have to come up with that on on the spot and go into war zones and write a good good story off their cell phone. So I think of jobs I can't do, but I like to cook. So maybe I my husband always tells me I should be opening a little restaurant, which, again, I'd be terrible at. But I I do come up with some nice menus for for for my n of one customer here.
Peter O'Toole:So so, actually, I I was I was going to to later on, I'll ask some quick fire questions, but I'm gonna bring one of those forward now. I usually ask, what is your signature dish then?
Virginia Litwin:Now that I have one I'm vegetarian, and I've been vegetarian since, I had my first apartment at at university. So, what I like to do is, put together a a full menu. So I I just as always, take on too much, and so I'm just going crazy at the end, but I I I pull it off. So and I'll tell you this. During COVID, we, of course, couldn't go out to dinner, And so we started having, dinners at home on the weekends so I could spend more time cooking. And, and I I had to learn French to to get residency here in Quebec. So started posting on on Facebook every week my my menu in French, and I called it Cafe Corona. So I I'm I'm had a lot of nice nice dishes there. It's just vegetarian cooking.
Peter O'Toole:And and you published those online, did you say?
Virginia Litwin:On on on Facebook till till we all got too sick of it. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:And and did your friends and family who looked at it, they try and get commenting, feeding back?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, for years, I've posted my some things. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:But you're posting it in French. Can all your family do French?
Virginia Litwin:The you know, my attitude, no, was, I have to learn French, and the rest of the world is going to suffer with me. If I feel the need to express it in French, I I will. Don't put me on the spot here, please.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. How have you found learning French?
Virginia Litwin:It was it was good. It's it's harder being somewhere that's bilingual. And so the Canadians being so nice, they they hear your accents, imperfect, and so they might answer you in English, which I I take is a is huge insult. That meant I really was doing poorly. So they'd be easier if I was in France, for sure. Okay. So I I you know, this is going out there. Anyone wants me to do a three month stint, talk at a French meeting, I'm there.
Peter O'Toole:Why why the move to Canada?
Virginia Litwin:I came here for a job.
Peter O'Toole:Mhmm.
Virginia Litwin:And, I had a couple opportunities at at it was in 2017 I moved, and, you know, we sort of decided as a family. I said to my husband, I said, well, pick one of these places. Where do you wanna live? And he said, well, I can't pick. It's your career. And I said, I'm not gonna give you anything I wouldn't want to take. So so, yeah, we came up to Montreal.
Peter O'Toole:And how is his French coming on?
Virginia Litwin:He had more French at in school than I did, but only one person in the household, had to take the French exam.
Peter O'Toole:So
Virginia Litwin:he has been extremely lazy about it. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:And and you have a pet cat. Correct?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. And Pierre.
Peter O'Toole:How's his French?
Virginia Litwin:Pierre is completely bilingual. He speaks. So
Peter O'Toole:perfect. That's a bad pun. I sorry for the pun on the the perfect bit, but there you are. Yes. As it works, so how how have you found relocating? Have you found that cultural change, the the the the it it's quite it's not it's never it's always a bit out of comfort zone moving to a different city, let alone in different countries. So how have you found all that?
Virginia Litwin:Right. Right. We've moved a lot, but, yeah, it was more challenging here, and having to go through immigration and everything. And, you know, I'm I'm American. I grew up in The US. So, yeah, being an immigrant was really it it was it was a lot, but I I finally got permanent residency. It's a lot of forms and a lot of money and a lot of everything. So I I had no idea how that was what that experience would be like being an immigrant. But it and and even though there's, you know, relationships between The US and Canada, especially for certain positions such as biologists that you're preferred profession. So I had it easy in that regard. Still, it it's it wasn't all that fun. And I had just started a new job, and I had just started the kickoff for CLSI h sixty two. So all of that, trying to learn French, you know, full time job, writing a international guidance document. There there wasn't a lot of time for that.
Peter O'Toole:Which I guess means you kind of just moved and didn't worry about it because you had so much going on.
Virginia Litwin:I yeah. It's like yeah. You just and and I I never think through all the details. Whereas other people will really look I've I've asked other people to, you know, take over committees for me or this or that, and they're like, how much work would it be? Will this? Will that? And it's like, I I good or bad, I never I never ask myself those questions. Sure. I'll do it.
Peter O'Toole:So you've got the big document done. You've got all the you've got the president presidency of Isaac. You've been on the Clinical Lab Standards Institute as an expert panel member. You're actually associate editor for cytometry part b. Have you ever stepped back and appreciated how much influence and impact you've had on the field?
Virginia Litwin:Do I step back and think that?
Peter O'Toole:Have you ever just stood back and think, actually, I have actually contributed quite significantly. I've done quite a bit. Have you ever actually just taken time to reflect on your own impacts? We you know, you it's it's common for us to look at others. So I'm looking at you now thinking, my god. You have done so much. You've done so and and really quite important impacts as well, not just with, but actually in your professional career, not just in your charitable societal career. Have you ever taken that time and step back to appreciate what you've done?
Virginia Litwin:No. I I I don't think I didn't get that gene. It it would just seem weird and arrogant. I I don't. I mean, I'm happy when I see the guidance document or papers that I've written referenced by people I don't know, but I don't know. Not public.
Peter O'Toole:So the Wallace Culture Award that you was it last year or the year before?
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. Last year.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Recognition of your contributions cytometry in the field, surely then you must realize that actually you have had a you should be proud of what you've done.
Virginia Litwin:Well, it it was very nice. And and I'll tell you, a lot of my people that were in my labs, were there and my mentors Mhmm. When I I I I gave the talk. And it was it was it was really nice. But, no, I I I I could never just sit around and say,
Peter O'Toole:No. I I I I guess you're not a vain person gonna be doing that, but it must be nice to receive that and just think, oh, actually, gosh. Yeah. Without realizing it, you've done this, because it's just what you do. It it's what your your passion has been, but it it helps the community.
Virginia Litwin:What it it I think more than that is it's I feel privileged. Right? So the and when I got the culture award, it I it was a career retrospective talk, but I I talked about my mentors and how they helped me. And then the end, it was like, this is what we need to do. And and ISAC and ICCS as well, very focused on mentoring that that next generation of scientists. And with my role at ISAC is I feel privileged to to be in the room, to be talking with people like you, working with Jessica Houston, Johnny Moore, all the Pauls, Robinson, Wallace, Smith. So I I yes. It it is a privilege, and I I I am really grateful. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So I I who you you mentioned your mentors. Who have been your biggest inspirations?
Virginia Litwin:They when I started at at UCLA as a as a as a as a technician, there were a lot of women. Right? And they, some are still my friends. And Janice Georgie, there's now a she passed away from uterine cancer, and she there's now a young investigator award at ICCS for Janice. And so I they have really been, a lot of those people, my mentors, but I mentioned them in the the the culture, talk. But Susan Plager was a a a new postdoc at, UCLA, and I was her technician. And she was now we call it, sponsorship, but she recommended me from my first anything committee and and continued to support me. She helped me with the, qualifying exams in graduate school. She put me on my first NIH grant, my first editor role. And it's I, you know, I don't know why. And and and Johnny Moore was also very instrumental in recommending me for things. And I think without them, I I I just had these great opportunities to to do these things. And I yes. And those are, I don't know, inspirations, but they were just so enablers for me. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:So that that makes just thinking about it, helping your mentors, your inspirations, and how they're stepping you up. Some of that would have been delegation. And how do you how how would you say you manage delegation? Are you a good delegator?
Virginia Litwin:Terrible. Terrible. And I I still, you know, have to muster up, you know, some courage and, you know, to ask someone to to to do things. You know? So, yeah, that is not something I I I I am great at. You know? So so probably I I spend more time doing things I I shouldn't be doing and yeah. But
Peter O'Toole:Okay. So some quick fire questions.
Virginia Litwin:Okay. Quick fire.
Peter O'Toole:Quick fire. So here we are. Are you an early bird or night owl?
Virginia Litwin:Early.
Peter O'Toole:Early bird? PC or Mac?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, Mac.
Peter O'Toole:Mac. McDonald's or Burger King?
Virginia Litwin:Neither. I'm vegetarian.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. If I say that's not gonna help, is it?
Virginia Litwin:Although my first paying job was McDonald's.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Okay. What's your favorite takeaway food or your favorite fast food?
Virginia Litwin:Starbucks coffee, almond milk.
Peter O'Toole:My son works at Starbucks. That's good. Chocolate or cheese?
Virginia Litwin:Oh gosh. Chocolate. Although cheese and port is good too.
Peter O'Toole:Did I say coffee or tea?
Virginia Litwin:Nope. Coffee.
Peter O'Toole:Coffee. So chocolate, coffee go well together, beer or wine?
Virginia Litwin:Wine. I'm from California. White or red? Was that it? Yep. Oh, well, I better say red if Paul Robinson is listening, but I like them both. Yep.
Peter O'Toole:Okay.
Virginia Litwin:He'll divorce me if I if I say red or white. So
Peter O'Toole:What is your ultimate favorite food?
Virginia Litwin:Ultimate favorite food. I think on Sundays, we go well, we used to have the paper. Now we don't. But we would go for a special coffee and and a a pastry somewhere. So I would say right now, it's it's a a superb almond croissant, but maybe not not an ordinary. And we have some great bakeries here in Beaumont. Yeah. So Yep.
Peter O'Toole:Whilst it's warm or cold?
Virginia Litwin:Either. That's fine. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:What is your food nightmare other than meat? Any style of food or things
Virginia Litwin:Too spicy. Too spicy. I can I am a wimp for spices, so I can handle a tiny bit? You know?
Peter O'Toole:Do you prefer to cook or clean?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, I love them both. I love cleaning. It's the OCD, which is great. You know, I have a virology background, so it's it's perfect.
Peter O'Toole:After cooking? You wanna clean up after cooking?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Oh, your husband's very lucky.
Virginia Litwin:Well, there's so many reasons.
Peter O'Toole:TV or book? Book. What are you reading at the moment? What's your favorite genre?
Virginia Litwin:I I it does just some good writing. Not scary. I've done a lot of biographies. I just love, David McClellan. Yeah. Not not trashy, fluffy, but, you know, good good writing.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Favorite film?
Virginia Litwin:Favorite film. I don't know if I have a favorite, but I I I do like a good movie. Just just just haphazardly, we watched re on on Netflix recently, Bridget Jones Diary. I was laughing from the get go. From the credits, it was funny. So I think a a good clever movie.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Star Wars or Star Trek?
Virginia Litwin:Neither.
Peter O'Toole:And favorite color?
Virginia Litwin:Brilliant violet. Oh, there's
Peter O'Toole:so few guests ever come out with something like brilliant violet or fluorescein or phycobacterium. Let's go blue or green or yellow. It's like, come on. Well done. Proper flow cytometrist at last. You passed the test. Yeah. What's your favorite music? What do you like listening to?
Virginia Litwin:I like I like rock. My husband's a bit of a rock historian, I would say. So my my rock, and I am the youngest of a large family, so I think my music tastes are above my age. But, yeah, I think all of the early, really good rock.
Peter O'Toole:Okay.
Virginia Litwin:A lot of the woman singers, Joni Mitchell, Emmylou Harris, Melinda Brownstead, all of them. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:So that that's good to chill out too. Do you have any hobbies? So when you if you've had a stressful day at work or in your life, what sort of hobbies do you do to chill out?
Virginia Litwin:Well, I pet Pierre, and I I I I put my head on his his little chest and listen to him purr, and it is, better than heroin, although I've never really tried heroin. But that's that's very good. I'm a runner. So, yep, I I put some music on on, my Sirius radio on on my, iPhone, and I break running here, lots of trails.
Peter O'Toole:What's your distance?
Virginia Litwin:An hour. Ten? Ten. Yep. Yep. I'm I'm not fast, but I I don't remember.
Peter O'Toole:I should I should convert that for the Americans, shouldn't I? Six miles?
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. Yeah. Not terribly fast, but I'm just going for, sanity and fun.
Peter O'Toole:Did do do any events?
Virginia Litwin:I do. I did I did one recently. My my local BFF, the engineer, is she used to do marathons, and, so she in such great company, she suffers through my slow, shorter runs. And we did a a 10 k a while ago, and I wanna do one this year as well.
Peter O'Toole:But she hasn't persuaded you to do a marathon yet with her?
Virginia Litwin:Oh, no. She wanted me to do a half marathon with her, and I I wouldn't. So I just I'm fine with I'm you know, my feet are happy. My knees are happy. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. It was yeah. So once you've done the half marathon, you know you're halfway to a marathon, then you have to do the marathon. So maybe you better not do in the half because then you're not
Virginia Litwin:Well, I get enough goals. Right? I'm doing another CLSI document, CyTO 2025, blah blah blah. Yeah. Okay.
Peter O'Toole:So outside of those hobbies, what would you say has been the most challenging time of your career where you probably had to lean on those more often?
Virginia Litwin:I I'm not I don't wanna share that.
Peter O'Toole:That's cool with me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna flick it around and say, what's been the best time of your career? If you could ever live a a an era, a a a year, or a moment in your career, what moment would you go back and relive?
Virginia Litwin:It it's it's right now. I mean, last year was the even I did the ISEC presidency and and before they had the special election, Bob Robinson had approached me about that. And I'm like, Paul, it's a year off. Like, you know? And and that took a long time to to to think about, could I do it? Would I want to? And then longer to, you know, run it by my husband. What would you think? And then shortly after that, the the Coulter award came up, and I had been nominated before. And, you know, no one walks around thinking, oh, I hope one day I'll get the culture award. But when you don't get it, you're like, because people tell you, oh, I nominated you, and you're like, yeah. I wish you hadn't shared. But so that was it was just really special. And and right now, I I just it's with my role at ISAC and and with the the conference, it's like, okay. What can I do to shape something meaningful to really make a contribution to the society and all? And a lot of my people that I've mentored or have been in my lab are doing great, and I'm so proud. And, you know, they give you a drop of credit when it's it's so I would say right now, it's it's just nice.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. And do you have any future predictions of where we should be going, flow cytometry wise?
Virginia Litwin:Yes. We we need to be quantitative. Absolutely. We need to be we need to be yes. I'm working on that now. We we need the industry behind us so that the software will work when we quantitate our data, and and then our variability between everything will diminish, and and we we can can move forward, and we can use those data in that whole translational space.
Peter O'Toole:With all the so so flick it flick it, in a different direction again. With all the different standardization and standards, do you do much with Nekwaas?
Virginia Litwin:I did when I was at at at clinical cytometry. Mhmm. Because it's very the equivalent in The US would be, College of American Pathologists. And I know they're and not what I'm doing now so much, but, yes, when, I was more involved with ICCS clinical cytometry. I
Peter O'Toole:I only asked some good friends who Liam Whitby.
Virginia Litwin:Yes. I know Liam.
Peter O'Toole:Ah, okay.
Virginia Litwin:That was David David Barnett was, a contributor to the the, guidance document as well. He's he's on that. Mhmm.
Peter O'Toole:Because I think I think Liam took over from Dave Denti when it came to Neecraft, as president and CEO. Actually, he has actually been I think he was on the first series of this of Flow Stars.
Virginia Litwin:Oh, well. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Really? Well, on go. To go watch. Although, I would say we did it in an evening or at dusk, and he got darker and darker and darker. So, actually, if you listen to it, it's fine. If you watch it, he's you might as well just listen to it because at the end, he goes very dark. He's also a runner, isn't he? Though he also has that in common, that he's Yes. Yes. Passionate about standards. So passionate. So, again, similar to yourself. So passionate about standards and the environment and supporting. It's so, yeah, I I guess a UK equivalent almost to yourself in many ways.
Virginia Litwin:And they've done a lot of really good papers and really good work on saying, okay. We put out this standard. How does it really work? Let's do a inter laboratory study on.
Peter O'Toole:Because I I've had Dave in York, but Liam as well and others from the class and standards. We run the RMS flow cytometry course, which has a whole clinical session. So Mhmm. For three days of clinical. So there's a lot of content around that with different tutors coming in, of which Liam it's always good to see Liam. He's all ah, he also likes coffee like yourself and chocolate. A lot of similarities. Good chances. How much, throughout your different throughout your career, how much have you managed to travel?
Virginia Litwin:A lot. I mean, less than some, but a a lot. Yeah. That's that's great. I just did my first live ed course in in Buenos Aires. Mhmm. And it's just fantastic. And I work from home now. I I oversee, actually, six different laboratories, but three different business units and which is fine. But I had forgotten how much fun it was to be in a a lab and around the students, and, oh, it was just great. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:So would you say Bonus Service is your favorite place you've been? Or
Virginia Litwin:It was pretty nice. It was pretty nice. No. I and I was supposed to go to us New Zealand, but I I I didn't realize they were both so far away, so I had to postpone New Zealand. I know I would say Australia. I do have a soft spot in my heart here. Australia.
Peter O'Toole:Any particular part?
Virginia Litwin:No. Let's see. Where have I been? No. I just it's just great. And I and we I'm a real my husband and I are real animal lovers, and we love wildlife, and it's like, well, look at these animals. So, yeah, it was great.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. Yeah. Because wildlife, again, is so different. The bird life there is quite a lot of endemic. It it's yeah. Very good for birding and whale watching.
Virginia Litwin:Yes. Yes.
Peter O'Toole:Okay. Yeah. What's the birding like? Actually, I have no I should know this off Claire Brown who's in Montreal. So she's quite a good birder. What's the bird life like in Montreal?
Virginia Litwin:It's like New England. My husband's from New England, so it's not different, right, to when you cross the border. Very nice. Cardinals, blue jays, which are those are our flashiest birds. They're very, very pretty. Nice goldfinches in the summer. The occasional, if you're really sharp, a scarlet tanninger.
Peter O'Toole:Yep.
Virginia Litwin:Yep. Of course. So your robins, juncos, chickadees. Yeah.
Peter O'Toole:Bizarrely, I think, is the first scarlet tanager that was actually in Mainland UK. It was Twitchable. So so it actually was was about 40 miles away from where I live recently.
Virginia Litwin:Wow. Wow.
Peter O'Toole:And I didn't get time to go and see it, but there you are.
Virginia Litwin:There you go. Woodpeckers. Yep.
Peter O'Toole:So I think we are probably up to our time as my watch just beeps. I have to ask, is there any last thought to any top tips or advice with someone starting out in their career? What would you advise them?
Virginia Litwin:Yeah. So I I think what like, I I I look at my career, and I think I just fell into it, or my career found me. And and I I just think I was very lucky, people say, oh, you did the work. You shouldn't say that. But it's I was I had good opportunities, and I had good mentors. And so I think if you're you just have to follow the the road. Right? And I and and I think if you're not some happy somewhere, just leave. And and you you will find a good a good mentor. And I I think just exploring where you know, lean more and more towards what you're you're good at and where where you can contribute because I mean, I never especially, you know, with being, you know, the incredible group we have at ISAC, I never feel like the smartest one in the room, but I know I'm making a contribution, and I'll do the work. And so I think that's just it. It's just do what you're good at. Do what you enjoy. Right? I mean, I I wanted to be a ballerina, but I was not good at it. So
Peter O'Toole:How many hours a day do you work?
Virginia Litwin:I don't count. We don't we don't we don't ask that question.
Peter O'Toole:Yeah. I've got a feeling I know the answer. Virginia Litwin, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, everyone who's watched or listened to the podcast. Please do go you've heard Virginia talk about Jessica Houston, Johnny Moore, Paul Wallace, Paul Robinson. We talked about Leah Whitby, all previous guests, all equally inspirational, all with their big impacts as well. And, Virginia, you should look back at yourself at some point and reflect on just how much you've contributed to the whole community and society in general. Virginia, thank you for joining me today.
Virginia Litwin:Thank you.
