Intro/Outro: 00:00

Welcome to Flow Stars, candid conversations between doctor Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of flow cytometry, brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bite Size Bio.

Peter O'Toole: 00:10

Have you ever wondered what might happen when you get towards the end of your career? Well, today on Flow Stars, I'm joined by Andreas Spittler and Derek Davies, who both kind of came to the end of their careers and then carried on. And today Andreas reflects on how his childhood ambition found its way into scientific career.

Andreas Spittler: 00:31

I would have to become a teacher and at the end I am a teacher because I I'm teaching my students and so but from from from from the beginning on, I wanted to be a a school teacher.

Peter O'Toole: 00:47

How moving into a core facility opened up a new world for Derek Davies.

Derek Davies: 00:52

Because I I I suddenly had a whole new set of people to deal with, lots of different types of experiments, new machines to play with.

Peter O'Toole: 01:00

How putting your heart into it can really shape a successful career.

Andreas Spittler: 01:05

My first boss said that I show to look for a niche. And if you are if you have a niche, you are successful in this. And if you are following the rules and so on and you and and and you are in your niche your heart, then you are successful. And this was exactly what I have done with sepsis immunology and also with flow cytometry at the end and always had on both, I had my heart in there.

Peter O'Toole: 01:32

All coming up in today's episode of Flow Stars. Hi. I'm Peter O'Toole from the University of York, and welcome to today's Flow Stars. Today, I'm joined by Andreas Spittler and Derek Davies, one from University of Vienna and one from formerly the Crick. How are you both?

Derek Davies: 01:52

Good. Thank you, Pete.

Andreas Spittler: 01:54

Thanks, mate. Great.

Peter O'Toole: 01:57

So this is a slightly different one. So when picking guests, and we've got we this sort of season has got lots of couples. So you're not a large couple before anyone asks, but you do share something in common. You both said only recently that you were going to retire. And I'm now going to start with Andreas.

Peter O'Toole: 02:16

Andreas, have you actually retired?

Andreas Spittler: 02:19

Yeah. From the position, I am retired at the end, but at the end, I'm working, well, more or 120%, and my position at the moment is 50%. This is really crazy. I love my work. You know this.

Andreas Spittler: 02:32

And I'm I'm it's my my position is extended to end of September two thousand twenty seven. And because this is this is true because we have a new lab, and we need to relocate to this new lab. And, yeah, I will help the new boss because I'm not anymore the head of the core facility. This is the reason.

Peter O'Toole: 02:53

September 2020. So you retired, and now you're carrying on to 2020.

Andreas Spittler: 02:57

Yeah. For two years. From now on, one and a half year. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 03:01

I didn't realize it was that much longer. I will come back to that in a moment. And, Derek, why aren't you retired?

Derek Davies: 03:07

Well, you can't just stop, can you, in this in this business. So I did retire from the CRICK in 2023 with the idea that I wasn't going to completely stop, And I'm still doing quite a lot of training and and teaching, but more on my own terms. So, hopefully, I can do what I like when I like. I'm not trying to work full time. But, like Andreas, I think I'll try and gradually move that down over the next couple of years.

Derek Davies: 03:31

But I like to be involved.

Peter O'Toole: 03:34

Do you like to do what you like when you like? How is that panning out?

Derek Davies: 03:38

It's not too bad because if I'm invited to give a call somewhere, really people rely on my timings. So it's down to my diary, which means that the rest of the time, I can be puffering about at home or writing courses. Works out

Peter O'Toole: 03:54

pretty well. Writing manuscripts, Derek.

Derek Davies: 03:58

Writing the old manuscript.

Peter O'Toole: 03:59

Okay. Andreas, how did you get sucked back into it then? Why did you say yes? You didn't have to say yes. Why did you say yes?

Andreas Spittler: 04:10

I didn't say yes. I this was my wish, and it was not easy to get it. This is this is this is really true. And this was it was really my wish to do it for two years because, as I said, that we have a new building, and we relocate with this new building, and there are a lot of things to do. And my experience is is very welcome.

Andreas Spittler: 04:32

And, therefore, I it was my wish to to do that. And because, again, I love my job. I love the people. I love the connections and and the talks to our users and so on, and this is really incredible. And for me, it's in the moment, it's only two years.

Andreas Spittler: 04:48

Derek, from you are retired from 2023. This is really amazing. You know, it's still working. I have no idea what what's happening with me at the end of 2027. I don't know.

Peter O'Toole: 05:01

Do have any aspirations what you might like to do, Andreas? Do you think you may like to still keep your hand in, or will you just cut clean and

Andreas Spittler: 05:09

Yeah. There are there are also some other things that I want to do, and you know this because I have visit at New York. And I'm I'm I'm I like I love motorbike traveling, and I I'm I've traveled I've traveled all over Europe at the end with my motorbike. And in the last few years, I did this more or less long long term riding with my bicycle. And I like traveling.

Andreas Spittler: 05:36

And just when when I'm really retired, then I think I will I will be on the way on the road either with my with my bicycle or with my motorbike. Let's see.

Peter O'Toole: 05:46

That sounds cool. And, Derek, do you ever see yourself coming to the end of Flow and actually properly retiring?

Derek Davies: 05:56

Well, it's going to be a gradual process, I think. I mean, there are some things, particularly the things we do with the Royal Microscopical Society, that you could fit fit quite easily in around a full retirement. So I'd still like to carry on with a few of those, but, obviously, there are things I'd like to do. Actually, my wife wants me to keep going because she works from home most of the time, so she doesn't want me here.

Peter O'Toole: 06:18

So does it scare either of you, the thought of final retirement? I'll start with Derek with that one. Does it scare you the thought that you I

Derek Davies: 06:27

think life has changed. I think when my my dad retired, it was very much, you know, you're working one day and then you stopped, and then you had to find something to fill your your time. Whereas now we've all got other strands to our lives, and we're just reducing one and bringing others in. I think retirement is a lot easier now.

Peter O'Toole: 06:45

I think you've taken a very gentle ramp, though. And, actually, when I think about Andreas here, who is 50%, so has his ramp, but working a 120%, that might be a lot more sudden at that point. So does it scare you, Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 07:03

Yeah. I don't know how to handle it afterwards. I I've I've no idea. Really, it's it's just not clear when I really stop with my work. And if it's if it's good or not, let's see.

Andreas Spittler: 07:16

I I don't know it. In the moment, I would say, if I if I have a look into the future, I would say, okay. In two years, I'm on the right way to to finish my work. And but what I really miss is what I will what I will miss is Flow Stromity and all this and and also the the the contact to the users and so on, or to the people of the community and so. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 07:42

Okay. So let let's change tack just a little bit. Let's take you back to when you were super young, age 10. Derek, I might have asked you this in the past. I can't remember.

Peter O'Toole: 07:53

But can you remember the very first job you wanted to do as a little boy? Andreas, what was the first job you ever wanted to be do?

Andreas Spittler: 08:01

I would have to become a teacher. And at the end, I I I am a teacher because I I'm teaching my students in Seoul and but from from from from the beginning on, I wanted to be a a school teacher. And and yeah. But, again, yeah, now I'm in at the university, and I'm teaching my students.

Peter O'Toole: 08:28

Mhmm. Derek?

Derek Davies: 08:30

Well, if you asked me before, Pete, I'm not sure I'm gonna give you the same answer, but I can remember that sort of age wanting to be an astronaut. Well, I think there's a lot of young people in the sixties, something like that when space exploration was a was a big thing. I never had any, aspiration to be a teacher, but, of course, that's sort of what we've ended up doing as as we work in the in the core facilities, and it's been very rewarding.

Peter O'Toole: 08:53

So how did you both get into flow cytometry? Derek, I don't think you have actually oh, actually, Derek did actually send me a picture. So, actually, those who are listening, I know most of you are listening to it. I'm gonna put this on for anyone who's actually watching, or we can just dial in and go to about the ten minute mark, and you'll, you'll see the picture. Give me a minute, Derek.

Peter O'Toole: 09:12

Let me just get to it is. Ah, this is Derek looking super young on one of the first cytometers, and my computer's super slow. How old were you, Derek?

Derek Davies: 09:25

There. I was probably about 25, 26, something like that. So I I got into cytometry, not not flow cytometry, cytometry in my first job where we were using a static microdensitometer to measure DNA content, which after a few years, we discovered we could do much more quickly and more accurately using that machine you see in front of you. This is a BD fax analyzer, which had two fluorescence detection channels, scatter and volume, amazingly. But that was great.

Derek Davies: 09:56

We only actually needed one fluorescence channel. And this is us trying to raise money by going to the the local news station and saying, you know, we've got a project that's not being funded. Please come and give us some publicity. Even worse? No.

Derek Davies: 10:12

Not directly. Eventually, we we did get funded, and that's how I I started full time in Flow. We got an MRC grant to fund two of us for three years and buy us a sorter, which is which is great. And at that point, I real I sort of realized that not only was Flow great for what I wanted to do, it was great for all sorts of other things as well. And this was still in the days when immunologists were in a darkened room looking at fluorescence microscopes.

Derek Davies: 10:36

And suddenly, realized that Flow was something that had a lot of applications for a lot of different people.

Peter O'Toole: 10:43

So have you always had a beard?

Derek Davies: 10:47

I've had a beard since I was about 21, I think, of various shapes and sizes and colors now, of course.

Peter O'Toole: 10:54

So you've been trendy, not trendy, and trendy again?

Derek Davies: 10:58

Yeah. I've stayed exactly the same. The trends have moved around me.

Peter O'Toole: 11:01

Mhmm. Andreas, can you remember your how you got into cytometry, what your first cytometer was?

Andreas Spittler: 11:08

This is this is really a crazy thing. And I studied medicine, and during my study, I decided because there was a really, really heavy heavy examination. And I thought if the people know me at this institute, they would be a little bit better to me. And and then I decided to to ask one professor from this institute if he have if he has a work for me, if he if he can work in his in his working group. And he said, okay.

Andreas Spittler: 11:36

Let's try it. And this was and then I my first day in working was the first of April in nineteen ninety one. And it was on the first day on. It's it's not a April joke. It was really from the first on April 1991.

Andreas Spittler: 11:51

And it from the first day on, I worked with Flow Cytometry. It was my first contact with with with a lab in the lab, but from the first day on, this Flow Cytometry.

Peter O'Toole: 12:03

I think you're both quite rare. In amongst our community, not so much. But in the world of science, you're quite rare because you were the first to contact technology, and then you carried on a career around the technology, the platform. And that that's, you know, that's quite unusual. Even today, I would say, there's very few people go to a cytometer or a qPCR or a mass spec or a microscope, and then, actually, their career goes with the instrument rather than scientific questions.

Andreas Spittler: 12:38

Exactly. Mhmm. Exactly.

Derek Davies: 12:41

And think that that, again, represents the the breadth of applications you can use. There's never a dull day in the flow cytometry world.

Peter O'Toole: 12:49

How many times have you thought that cytometry may be coming to the end of the road and another technology may leapfrog over it? You must have thought that at some point.

Derek Davies: 12:59

It probably happens every decade, doesn't it, when when something new comes to challenge you? So in the in the nineties, we had the rise of molecular biology and we think, you know, how can we get away with not looking at cells? And so you start devising ways of looking at secreted cytokines, for example, or doing western blots on a cytometer in effect.

Peter O'Toole: 13:18

Andreas, any thoughts? Have you had those fears? Oh my goodness. Cytometry is not going to be the future anymore?

Andreas Spittler: 13:25

Oh, no. Definitely not. Because I think that flow cytometry is developing really, really well. Let's see it let's see it with now with the imaging flow cytometer, for example, and the the development goes further into into different directions. We do not know what in in which directions, but this is one of the of the next directions.

Andreas Spittler: 13:44

And I think flow cytometry is always present, is my opinion, and it's only the it's only a question of development of flow cytometry.

Peter O'Toole: 13:56

Yeah. I I think you're absolutely right. The the speed of advancement of flow cytometry has taken quite a step change in the last five, six years or so. Yeah. And, actually, Derek, you pointed out every ten years, there there's a Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 14:09

Challenge, but the technology steps roughly every 10 years.

Andreas Spittler: 14:12

Right. Another thing is that also different techniques are are growing together now. And, for example, flow cytometry is one of the central techniques to to isolate one cell, and then this goes to the proteomics or to or to the genomics. And this is this is more or less easiest way to do it to do it.

Peter O'Toole: 14:31

Yeah. I think the harmonization of technologies and cytometry being very much front and you you need the cytometers before you can then do some of the latest other modality technologies. Derek, you were gonna say something. Sorry.

Derek Davies: 14:45

I was I was gonna say that if you look at that cytometer that you showed just now, in fact, I I do this when I'm teaching, you can see the same components that we have now. You know, there was there was fluidics. There was a a light source. There was filters. There was a detector.

Derek Davies: 14:58

But everything has got better and smaller and more capable, and we've added more and more things in there, which, again, has increased the number of things that we can do. And Andreas just mentioned that the idea of single cell sorting. We used to do a lot of single cell sorting just for cloning. Right? But but now you're taking it to single cell genomic applications, which are giving us lots more information.

Derek Davies: 15:18

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 15:21

So here's the next challenge for cytometry is the usability, you know, to run a a mode flow. So, actually, Derek sent me another picture

Andreas Spittler: 15:31

Right. Mhmm.

Peter O'Toole: 15:32

Which is actually of Derek. I think this is an old legacy Mo Flow from as it was at the time. Still looking rather young, but still with a beard, I note.

Derek Davies: 15:43

But colored. Not great at all, that one.

Peter O'Toole: 15:48

See, this dress is a work, Derek. It's what it's done to you with all that gray hair. But maybe importantly on this, it we were vital to do this work. And now the companies and if we think about the latest quarter systems, the latest BD systems, they are actually genuinely very user friendly. So But

Andreas Spittler: 16:13

but this is a problem. At the end, this could also be a problem because you can you can put the people behind the machine, and you and then people and and and the and the user can measure anything. And but, possibly, he has he has not some knowledge what behind. And and therefore, I think it is really dangerous because, yeah, because this is really too it's now easy to measure anything, what you want to do, and but you have to it and so on. And this is it's it's it's critical.

Derek Davies: 16:45

Yeah. I think you can understand the the manufacturer's desire to make something as simple as possible.

Andreas Spittler: 16:50

Of course.

Derek Davies: 16:51

But that that always takes away some flexibility. Right? And it's very easy to get a dot on a screen on a cytometer. But like you say, it's it's being able to interpret that and and know that it's Yeah. Real.

Andreas Spittler: 17:01

Yeah. What people do not think about it is is that flow cytometry is a lot of interpretation, and and flow cytometry has has a has a basic a lot of normally, a lot of knowledge. And and yeah. And I sometimes miss the knowledge of what the people what what's really behind and what behind the technique. And what I'm always telling my students or I'm asking my students, what do we measure?

Andreas Spittler: 17:29

And they say, okay. We are measuring cells. We are measuring, let's yeah. Cells at the end or bacteria and so but what we measure at the end is is only light. And you have to imagine that we only are measuring light, and this is from the beginning on from the technique.

Peter O'Toole: 17:50

Well, I think, see, I always look at a team, and I always thought, actually, as they get more user friendly, yes, you still need expert input. We can still train people now to collect the data. It's then the analysis or the the experimental design and the analysis, but they don't need us to be hands on. But what I've personally, what we found in our lab is actually because we've got more sorters, we need more experts to constantly be advising, constantly helping troubleshoot. Because the scientists in the lab today, it's not that they cannot be experts or proficient in flow cytometry, but they've also got to be proficient in microscopy and mass spec and genomics.

Peter O'Toole: 18:27

And and, actually, that's not possible. What okay. They're there's the exceptional people. But because they're so dedicated on their scientific question, they don't want to be experts across these technologies. So I think flow cytometrists, for technical experts, it's become even more important possibly than it was even even ten years ago because the the number of experiments using it.

Derek Davies: 18:52

Yeah. Certainly, in the last fifteen or so years, my job changed in that because the experiments were becoming more complex, we spent a lot more time helping people design experiments, thinking about the fluorochromes they were using, thinking about the cytometer that we're gonna use it on. And then, course, as they're measuring more parameters, you've got the challenge of the data analysis. And that's what we're there for, isn't it? It's to help them from a to zed, hold their hand through all of those.

Derek Davies: 19:17

Most of the time, we can train train them to do it themselves, but they don't necessarily know that initially. So we spend a lot of time doing that, which is really a fun part of the job.

Peter O'Toole: 19:26

So I I guess that's where also a lot of those external courses are really super useful because not everyone has access to those experts. And the online courses, which is obviously since 2020, has become an even bigger part as well. It's helping those in other regions that are not so able to get local expertise.

Derek Davies: 19:47

Yeah. And I think that the lockdown periods sort of helped us away in a way in actually attracting a bigger audience or or reaching more people because I was doing a lot of training face to face, classroom based and practical training. But, of course, as soon as we pivoted that to the virtual world, we could have people from anywhere across the world coming to them. And because a lot of people had nothing much else to do, we got a huge audience.

Peter O'Toole: 20:11

My next question, I saw the picture the picture of you, Derek, with the Mowflow. And I actually, if if I reflect back over my entire career, probably my favorite instrument of all time is probably the MoFlow legacy. I I just loved it. Agree. You're right.

Peter O'Toole: 20:31

So, Andreas, what was your favorite cytometer of all time?

Andreas Spittler: 20:36

This is this is difficult to answer. I I agree that the Flow was a really, really, really exciting technique and and machine. But for me, it was at the end when I when I stumbled over the the side effects. And at the end, for me, it it was the easiest way to to do flow cytometry at that moment. And what you possibly not do not know is that in I think it was in 2014.

Andreas Spittler: 21:10

There were two prototypes worldwide. And I got, for one prototype in into my lab for half a year. And what I did with this was then at the end, the the first, let's say, the first extracellular vesicle paper with with with the CytoFLEX. And this was really an honor to get this machine into my lab, and it was it was amazing. And what what I like on this machine because it's really easy to handle, and it's really, really small.

Andreas Spittler: 21:41

It was at that time a CytoFLEX with three lasers, and it was absolutely easy to handle. And it was the software is easy and to put your end in the in in the plots and to compensate and to change the games and so on. It's absolutely incredible at that time.

Peter O'Toole: 22:00

I gotta say, you must have criticized it, though, because then they came out with a NanoFlex.

Andreas Spittler: 22:06

Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm. Which is

Peter O'Toole: 22:07

even better for your

Andreas Spittler: 22:08

EV study. Definitely. Of course. Because it's standardized, but at that time, it was was a really good instrument to do to do EV research. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 22:18

And, Derek, what was your favorite site on the

Derek Davies: 22:21

On the basis that you never forget your first. Right? I I really did like the facts analyzer because it didn't really work very well. So we ended up constantly taking it apart and putting it back together, which was great. It was good grounding for understanding how that worked.

Derek Davies: 22:35

But like you, I think the the the legacy MoFlow was the one that really pushed a lot of things forward, being able to do high speed four way sorting and be able to modify this the machine to fit your experiment rather than the other way around. And although that didn't work for a long time, but we persevered with it. And then the company it was a two way dialogue between the company and their users, and those problems got solved. And, you know, everybody has a high speed sorter now.

Andreas Spittler: 23:02

Mhmm. But the development of of the MoFlo afterwards was not so good. And because when it changed to a to a new company, to the new company, and so it was not so good to my opinion. But and and you do not have it on the market anymore. For me, it's it's not good.

Andreas Spittler: 23:19

I I I love this. I love following the sheet, the Astros. I loved it really, really well. But but it was not user friendly at the end. It was definitely not user friendly, and it was not a good machine to to for for a call facility to let people work themselves with this machine.

Andreas Spittler: 23:39

This wasn't possible.

Derek Davies: 23:41

No. So even in the in my lab while I was still in the lab, we had a whole variety of machines. So we had the influx as well as the the motivation for the two generations down the road. But we wouldn't train people to use that. That would always be run by the staff of the lab.

Derek Davies: 23:56

Absolutely. Whereas the more user friendly at the time I had, you know, Fusions and Arias, would train people to use. Yeah. Yeah. That's gonna go wrong.

Derek Davies: 24:04

And then there are more user friendly machines on the market now than there were six years ago.

Peter O'Toole: 24:09

God. I thought you two said you were good teachers. I've had three or four, maybe even five different users independent on the old Mowflow legacy and then transferring across to the Astros, which we still have running today. I my my my the reason I like the MoFlow more so than MoFlow Astrios is purely because it was so tactile. You could hear it.

Peter O'Toole: 24:31

You could sense it. You could feel it.

Andreas Spittler: 24:34

Right. Absolutely.

Peter O'Toole: 24:35

It was part of you. It was a strange feeling. You could walk into the room. If someone else was operating it Right. You knew what it was doing and how it was behaving.

Andreas Spittler: 24:44

Right. And I think this is really missing at the moment because because you because it's a connection. What you said, really it's a really feeling and the feeling and the the working together with biology. And I think this is really missing. And I miss this because you are true.

Andreas Spittler: 25:01

It was a it was a, yeah, it was a good situation to to feel it and to work around it and and to see what happens.

Peter O'Toole: 25:09

Derek, you were gonna say?

Derek Davies: 25:11

I was gonna say that there's nothing like the satisfying feeling of tuning and and refocusing your lasers on a on a machine where you can do that.

Peter O'Toole: 25:20

But, of course, I think that is genuinely now all behind us. Everything has changed. And and for the better, ultimately, if if we had been taught on the latest systems like the SRT, Andreas, and you were then shown a MoFlow, you would laugh.

Andreas Spittler: 25:36

Of course. Definitely.

Peter O'Toole: 25:38

Of course. Is now so super user. Why? You're having to align what? Align your lasers?

Peter O'Toole: 25:44

Yeah. Yeah. What's this you're talking about?

Derek Davies: 25:46

We can't quite progress anyway, but the the each thing brings a new challenge.

Peter O'Toole: 25:51

Mhmm. Okay. So I'll go, again, switch. What would you Davies based the most fun time of your careers when you look back now? Or is now the most fun time of your careers?

Peter O'Toole: 26:04

I see.

Derek Davies: 26:05

Well, it's a good question. I think I think mine was when when I moved into the core facility at what was Imperial Cancer Research Fund because I I I suddenly had a whole new set of people to deal with, lots of different types of experiments, new machines to play with. The fact that you could you could actually go to cytometry meetings and mingle and mix with other cytometrists, which we carried on, of course, for the last thirty odd years.

Peter O'Toole: 26:29

Yep. Andreas, what about you? Yeah.

Andreas Spittler: 26:33

I'm thinking about it. It's it's not really clear. I would define it a little bit else. I would say, okay. Fun time might be, but the most exciting day was when we founded our core facility.

Andreas Spittler: 26:45

And this was a core facility at the Metropolitan University Vienna. And from that time on, I I I felt really, really well. Because, you know, I'm at the end, I'm a medical doctor, but I was never a physician. And but I worked on let's say, only in research. And my main field was sepsis immunology.

Andreas Spittler: 27:03

And and in 2000 I think it was 2003, we founded the the the first university. And from that point on, I I knew where my position is because I could combine my experiences with with research and with my technical, what I what I've learned.

Peter O'Toole: 27:25

So this this may econ to the same side. I was also gonna ask, what is your proudest moment at work? What's your proudest achievement, you think, within your careers?

Derek Davies: 27:37

That's a good question.

Peter O'Toole: 27:39

Oh, look at those worried looks. I'm gonna go with Andreas first because I think this may be easier to answer.

Andreas Spittler: 27:49

It's not one. It's not one moment. It's it's it's for me, it's it's and it's real. It's it's the certificate as a set of that when when our users are satisfied. This is, for me, the proudest moment at the end.

Andreas Spittler: 28:06

And this is and because I see then that I can bring them a little bit further, and we will we also discuss a lot of thing their projects and a lot of private things and so. And this is every day every day, really, a lot of proud moments and lucky moments.

Peter O'Toole: 28:29

That's a cool answer, Andreas. Now Derek's had time to think about it. It's like a quiz show, isn't it? You gotta put your way in a booth. Well You're gonna have to come back with an answer.

Derek Davies: 28:37

I'll take Andreas' answer and shift it over to the the side of the core facility. I think the number of people who have come through the lab, my lab, and have gone off to run their own core facilities or move into much better positions, I'd like to think I had something to do with that. And I'm glad they moved because otherwise I've had my job. But a lot of people have moved not just in The UK. I've got people all over the world who are running their own core facilities now who've worked worked in the lab in London.

Peter O'Toole: 29:03

Yeah. So so it's the results that deliver the scientists, the careers that are being developed. It's It's quite when you reflect back, and you are both in a privileged position to never be able to look back at most of your career. I know you're still active. You know, you must take some a sense of pride in all those aspects.

Peter O'Toole: 29:22

And I don't know if you've ever stopped to actually stop and just reflect on those impacts. All those careers from the PhDs that are using your equipment, the postdocs, you've been able to do their publications. You're probably inspired to go on to become flow cytometry in some cases, develop their careers in flow cytometry. The courses you've taught on that have gone through it, the beta testing that you've all done in developing new technologies and like the EV publication. Just, you know, people would have copy and pasted that to develop there.

Peter O'Toole: 29:55

So as a youngster, you could surely, could not have envisaged having that much impact.

Derek Davies: 30:03

No. Probably not. I think certainly, you know, when I started in flow cytometry, it was a very niche area. The journal had only been going a couple of years, and people were doing very simple experiments. There's a there's a a volume of the Journal of Histochemistry and Cytochemistry from 1979, which I would encourage everybody to look at.

Derek Davies: 30:20

It's all online. That has got a lot of early papers. If you go back to them, they tell you how the machines work. A lot of that knowledge has been lost. But I've feared completely from the question there.

Derek Davies: 30:32

But I think what we've what we've had over the years is a technology that's enabled people to do all sorts of things, and our job is to empower them to be able to do that. So I think, you know, the the training that we've done over the years, the people who've come through the lab, the PhD students, the postdocs, hopefully, they've all got something out of it, which has helped increase the knowledge in the field, which is, you know, what we're there for, hopefully.

Peter O'Toole: 30:57

Andreas, have you ever reflected or thought about your impacts? Yeah.

Andreas Spittler: 31:07

I started to do this when I've when when I am officially retired retired, and I said what I have done for Flow Stars in Austria. And I think it was it was to be honest, I don't say that or I want to say it for my own, but I found it together with some with some colleagues, the Austrian Society for Cytometry in 2001 with some with some colleagues together in 2016, the the Austrian Society for Extracellular Vesicles. And since the last fourteen years and this last term. I'm the president of the Austrian Society for Cyclometry. Fourteen years is a really, really long time.

Andreas Spittler: 31:51

And for for extracellular vesicles, I was it for five years. And for but two two societies together, it's not possible. This is this is this is makes no sense. And I decided to make it for swipe for for the for for cytometry. And, yeah, this is I think and all of which is belong with that.

Andreas Spittler: 32:10

Also the the courses what we are doing. And this is so called normagic flow cytometry course and so on. Yeah. Mhmm. And

Peter O'Toole: 32:20

do you think our careers lend themselves to being properly recognized in the academic field for its impact. An academic gets your professorial status. It has your massive publications that, you know, that guide the field. Slightly different, I think, in our position. We don't necessarily have the publications.

Peter O'Toole: 32:38

They're really highly cited, but we have the influence. It actually probably has more impact to more publications Yeah. Than a citation. How do we get that recognized?

Derek Davies: 32:49

Well, I think it's better than it used to be, certainly. But, you know, I go back when when I moved to the Imperial Cancer Research Fund, I I went to the guy who was looking after the core facilities and and said, you know, what what do you want from somebody who's in a core facility? And he said, I want somebody who's an expert in that technology to be able to support the the scientists. And, hopefully, that's what we've done over the years, but I think we get more recognition of that now. I mean, people are more likely to at least acknowledge your work.

Derek Davies: 33:19

Many of us get on the publications as well. And a lot of institutes will now be looking at that and using that as a metric of of the output, which is very important, of course, these days to get funded.

Peter O'Toole: 33:32

Is that the same for you, Andreas? Is it the same

Andreas Spittler: 33:35

for you? Yeah. I think it's a little bit different because from sort of the first moment and because I started with this loss autonomy in 1991. And from the first moment, it was my technique, and I got a lot of recognition from the not from the first day, of course, but a few years later. And for me, it was it was at the end, it was really easy to have a community and to be a part of the community.

Andreas Spittler: 34:01

And and and and I never had the feeling that I was not recognized at that.

Peter O'Toole: 34:07

So here's interesting. I I'm gonna play top trumps here. So Andreas has just upped it by being president of the society for quite some time. Derek will not say, but I will say it for him, has also received the British Empire Medal on the, the King's Honorary Award list. I can't remember what it's called that day.

Derek Davies: 34:26

New Year's Honors list.

Andreas Spittler: 34:27

New Year's Honors list. Congratulations.

Derek Davies: 34:30

Thank you. And it it is a it is a great honor. And, you know, I see that as being a recognition of what we've done. I mean, the citation was for support in life sciences. And I'm I'm hoping that, know, I'm gonna be a trailblazer and and other people can follow suit because a lot of us are doing the same sort of job.

Peter O'Toole: 34:50

But I I but I think that that shows that the credits, the recognition can be there, but it is a very different career path for what many other life scientists will actually follow.

Derek Davies: 35:00

But it is an option now, which maybe it wasn't in the early days.

Peter O'Toole: 35:04

Yeah. I thought it's true. Andreas, would you say it's true? I think we were fairly new. We were the innovators, I think, at the time.

Peter O'Toole: 35:13

Facilities didn't exist.

Andreas Spittler: 35:16

Yeah. Right. Mhmm. Right. Mhmm.

Andreas Spittler: 35:19

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 35:20

I'm gonna ask you some quick fire questions now. So, Andreas, I know my dialect is difficult for you. So just say

Andreas Spittler: 35:28

Okay.

Peter O'Toole: 35:28

Repeat it again if not. But Mhmm. I'll start with Andreas. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Andreas Spittler: 35:35

Early bird. Definitely early bird. I starting at I start I'm at the institute at seven in the morning.

Peter O'Toole: 35:42

Oh, early

Andreas Spittler: 35:42

early bird. Seven in the morning, and then we leave it at, let's say, at five or six in the evening. I'm really, really, really an early bird.

Derek Davies: 35:50

Derek? Probably a bit of both, but mostly a night owl, I would say.

Andreas Spittler: 35:57

Yeah. This would try to fool people be perfect together.

Peter O'Toole: 36:02

Derek? Coffee or tea?

Derek Davies: 36:06

Tea every time.

Peter O'Toole: 36:08

Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 36:09

Coffee.

Peter O'Toole: 36:10

Coffee?

Andreas Spittler: 36:12

Yeah. Awesome coffee. There are so different kinds of awesome coffees, you know. No. Okay.

Andreas Spittler: 36:18

I should order it.

Peter O'Toole: 36:20

Chocolate or cheese? Oh,

Andreas Spittler: 36:25

if I have to choose, then cheese.

Peter O'Toole: 36:27

Derek, you're gonna be cheese. I know

Derek Davies: 36:29

Straight off. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 36:31

Okay. Derek, beer or wine?

Derek Davies: 36:33

Oh, depends on the situation. I mean, there are there are lots of good beers. There are lots of good wines. But if I had to choose, probably wine.

Peter O'Toole: 36:40

And that would be red, I presume. And Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 36:44

For me, it's easy. If it's every time beer. And if if wine is offered, I order beer. Yeah. Because my roots in are in Germany, and therefore, I may be a person.

Peter O'Toole: 37:03

Okay. Derek, Flow Cytometry or family?

Derek Davies: 37:07

Oh, family. You

Peter O'Toole: 37:11

may not heard that. Derek did say family after going, oh, and thought about it for a moment. If Lou watches this back, you're in big trouble.

Derek Davies: 37:19

They don't watch me.

Peter O'Toole: 37:22

Or your children. Yeah. They they will not be happy with that. Nathan and Billy will not be happy you had to think about it. Andreas, podcast or radio?

Andreas Spittler: 37:32

Radio. It's the first time I do not listen to any podcast. Sorry for that. But I have to be honest, and therefore, you know, I'm always honest and yeah. No.

Andreas Spittler: 37:44

Really.

Peter O'Toole: 37:45

That was the wrong wrong answer for this podcast.

Andreas Spittler: 37:48

I know. I know. I I'm honest.

Peter O'Toole: 37:52

There are my two troubled questions for you. Andreas, what is your favorite color?

Andreas Spittler: 37:57

Red. Derek? Red.

Peter O'Toole: 38:00

Maroon. Okay. You both wear badges of being Kin Flow Stars. Neither of you said FTSE or PE. Although, really?

Peter O'Toole: 38:13

You chose an actual color rather than your favorite dye.

Derek Davies: 38:17

I chose the color that my favorite football team play in.

Peter O'Toole: 38:21

I can't believe Derek's now just segued into go on. Who do you support, Derek?

Derek Davies: 38:27

I support my local side, Carlshort and Athletic.

Peter O'Toole: 38:30

Can you repeat that? Because most people who are listening will never have heard of it.

Derek Davies: 38:33

They will never have heard of Carlshort and Athletic. If you understand UK football, they play in the seventh tier, which means if we were to win six consecutive promotions, we would play Manchester United.

Peter O'Toole: 38:44

What? Because we'd have been relegated one. So, Andreas, what's your favorite sport?

Andreas Spittler: 38:53

Yeah. It's soccer soccer at the end. For watching, I'm I'm I I love to do skiing. I like it very, very much. But for watching and so on, because I'm all to do it by myself, soccer.

Andreas Spittler: 39:07

And my favorite team is Bayern Munich.

Peter O'Toole: 39:09

Oh, okay. You're unlikely to meet each other in a football game.

Derek Davies: 39:14

Very unlikely.

Peter O'Toole: 39:15

Not even friendly. Team is in the seventh tier is how many tiers he sheds every time he watches them.

Derek Davies: 39:22

It's like that this season. That's for sure.

Andreas Spittler: 39:25

Yeah. In this season. Yes. Yeah. Andreas,

Peter O'Toole: 39:33

TV or book?

Andreas Spittler: 39:37

Depends on this is difficult this is really difficult to answer because when I started to read a book, I need to read it up to the end, and and it blocks me during my work. And so I'm it's it's really incredible because, yeah, I have to I have to read it at the end. And, yeah, really depends on it's not it's not really clear. When I'm walking, when I'm when when I'm on the on the mountains and so, I have my audiobooks and so on. And yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 40:10

And and what sort of genre? What sort of book do you read?

Andreas Spittler: 40:15

Normally, because it's easy to listen to, it's it's with us.

Peter O'Toole: 40:19

Okay.

Andreas Spittler: 40:20

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 40:21

And, Derek, same question. TV or book?

Derek Davies: 40:25

I would say I don't get control of the TV remote very often in my house, so it would be book.

Peter O'Toole: 40:31

And genre?

Derek Davies: 40:33

Genre, I'm I'm I'm not really a big fan of fiction. I read a lot of nonfiction. Something like travelogues. Bill Bryson is a is a good read. And

Peter O'Toole: 40:42

and I am gonna ask, do you watch any trashy TV? And I'm gonna start with Andreas. So when you do watch TV, what is your sinful TV that you'd rather not admit to? But because I've asked you and you said you always give an honest answer, you have to tell me.

Andreas Spittler: 40:58

You mean what kind of of

Peter O'Toole: 41:05

Rubbish TV.

Andreas Spittler: 41:07

Rubbish TV? Okay. There are a lot of series in the moment. And what I have what I have the the last series since I've I've it it was hard to watch it. It was a tap a TV series.

Andreas Spittler: 41:25

It was Tehran. Possibly, you you know it or you have have seen it, and it was exactly when stopped. It's this this this the second season, the war started the the the season started ended at on Friday with a with a with a a war against the Iran in the in the movie, and the the war started on Saturday. And this was crazy.

Peter O'Toole: 41:54

Wow. That is very exciting.

Andreas Spittler: 41:56

Crazy to watch this.

Peter O'Toole: 41:58

So at the time of recording the Iran war, is that

Andreas Spittler: 42:00

Yeah. Why?

Peter O'Toole: 42:01

Still barely early on. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Wow.

Peter O'Toole: 42:06

Derek, trashy TV. Which one are gonna pick?

Derek Davies: 42:09

Re recently, I do watch a little bit of television, and I watch the things that we can sort of all watch together. So we we like the traitors. That was quite good. And and the apprentice, The UK version of the apprentice.

Andreas Spittler: 42:23

Is that?

Derek Davies: 42:25

Awful. Well, it's my need to laugh at the contestants and see how inept they are.

Peter O'Toole: 42:33

I'm sure they are deliberately being inept. They cannot really be that inept. This is a what The Apprentice is also in The US, wasn't it, with Donald Trump? Yeah.

Derek Davies: 42:42

Donald Trump.

Andreas Spittler: 42:43

But ah. Ah, okay.

Derek Davies: 42:46

Wow.

Andreas Spittler: 42:46

Okay.

Peter O'Toole: 42:49

To be fair, I have watched it in the past, but it's just got sillier and sillier. It's really wow. Andreas, you're winning now in top trumps.

Derek Davies: 42:59

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 43:01

Derek has just just lost all his cards at once for admitting that side of it. Derek, what is your favorite food?

Derek Davies: 43:10

My favorite food? Curry.

Andreas Spittler: 43:15

Yeah. I agree.

Peter O'Toole: 43:16

Oh, both curries.

Andreas Spittler: 43:18

Yeah. Right. Mhmm. A vegetarian curry.

Peter O'Toole: 43:22

What was that, Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 43:23

Vegetarian curry.

Peter O'Toole: 43:25

Well, Derek, what type of curry? Oh, probably a fish.

Derek Davies: 43:28

Vegetarian. I do eat I do eat prawns and and fish. Yeah.

Andreas Spittler: 43:32

Yeah. Okay.

Peter O'Toole: 43:33

And, Andreas, is that a curry in Austria or a curry elsewhere?

Andreas Spittler: 43:38

No. I make it by by myself. So it's an Indian curry or something like this. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 43:45

Yeah. And, Derek, where would you say the best curry is around?

Derek Davies: 43:50

Well, I live in London. If you go up to Brick Lane, there's some really nice curry houses. Is very good.

Peter O'Toole: 44:00

What is your least favorite food? Start with Andreas this time.

Andreas Spittler: 44:05

The least?

Peter O'Toole: 44:06

Least favorite food.

Andreas Spittler: 44:11

Oh. What

Peter O'Toole: 44:13

would you if you went to a conference and they put something in front of you, go, oh, no.

Andreas Spittler: 44:19

Oh, yeah. I had it. I had it in Glasgow. Haggish. This is not my food.

Andreas Spittler: 44:27

I had and this this this is there was a really crazy thing, and this fits to the beer to the beer story. They offered whiskey, and it was for free. They offered whiskey, and it it was for free. It was a conference. And then I said, no.

Andreas Spittler: 44:42

Whiskey it was enough whiskey, and so I would like to have a beer. And they said, you have to pay for the beer. Whiskey was for free, but you have to pay for the beer. This was crazy.

Peter O'Toole: 44:55

What? Okay. Derek, I'll I'll I'll I'll I'll come back to that story in a moment.

Derek Davies: 44:59

I wouldn't say there was a genre of food that I didn't particularly like, but, I'm I'm if I were in a restaurant, I would never order veg vegetable lasagna, for example, because I'm very particular about how you cook vegetables.

Peter O'Toole: 45:12

So who's the cook in your house, Derek?

Derek Davies: 45:14

We both cook.

Peter O'Toole: 45:16

Okay. For each other, or do you both cook separately? Because neither of you likes each other's No.

Derek Davies: 45:21

No. For each other. We're family.

Peter O'Toole: 45:24

Andreas, what about you? Who cooks at home?

Andreas Spittler: 45:28

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 45:29

You're the cook.

Andreas Spittler: 45:29

Cook. Mhmm. More or less everything.

Peter O'Toole: 45:34

And you mentioned the conference. What is your favorite conference, Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 45:42

Yeah. My my favorite conference is is, at the end, really, the Isaac the Isaac meeting, and I love it. And not in the moment because it's not in Europe, to be to be honest. But at the end, I I like this Isaac meeting and our own meetings, of course.

Peter O'Toole: 46:01

Maybe Saito needs to start going

Andreas Spittler: 46:04

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 46:04

US overseas again and not Right. Right. Hold to US.

Andreas Spittler: 46:08

Hopefully. Yeah. Alright. Mhmm.

Peter O'Toole: 46:09

Yeah. Actually, that's a good point there. It's it's letting us, non Americans, let down a bit. We need we need a net biannual event, I think. Derek, what about you?

Derek Davies: 46:19

I I would have to agree with Andreas. I mean, the site conferences over the years have been been highlights because it it's a global conference. So most of the time, we get people from everywhere. You you bump into your friends or people who have become friends over the past twenty, twenty five years. It's a it's a social occasion as well as a scientific occasion.

Peter O'Toole: 46:36

And, Derek, so these conferences are really very popular, and there's always evening events. And, actually, Derek sent one more picture through, which is actually, this is not a photo booth, but you're all wearing props. Except what are you wearing, Derek?

Derek Davies: 46:51

I'm wearing a hat of some sort, mate. I think it's some sort of Persian thing.

Peter O'Toole: 46:56

I I noticed Anyway,

Derek Davies: 46:59

I like I like this photo because apart from Alfonso, who we recognize in the front It's

Andreas Spittler: 47:02

perfect. Yeah.

Derek Davies: 47:03

Everybody else in this photo worked with me at some point. Mhmm. And they still still stand in the photo with me. It's great.

Peter O'Toole: 47:10

So who's got the stormtrooper mask?

Derek Davies: 47:13

Stormtrooper is Andy Philby. He's under there.

Peter O'Toole: 47:16

Ah, okay. Well, give them all a shout out.

Derek Davies: 47:19

Okay. There's Caroline O'Connor in The States, Tina Luke who's in Australia at the moment, Catherine Simpson who's in London still, Lola Martinez who runs the cancer center in Madrid, and Simon Monard, who is in Melbourne.

Peter O'Toole: 47:38

Well, so there's an impact and a half. If you look at actually, they've all worked for you down at was he actually was at ICR. It's down at Lincoln's, was it, at the time?

Derek Davies: 47:49

All of those are Lincoln's in. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 47:51

And now they are in just go through the countries again. Australia, Portugal.

Derek Davies: 47:56

There's two in Australia, one in Spain, one in The States, and another one still in London, and Andean in Newcastle.

Peter O'Toole: 48:03

Yeah. Wow. That's that's quite a cool picture. So CyTO is a super cool conference. And, actually, if anyone listening, no matter what your science is, those conferences are where you make your I asked Derek earlier, flow cytometry or family?

Peter O'Toole: 48:18

And, actually, you could have flipped it and say, which family? My home family or my flow family? Because it is you know, I think those conferences are a unique place where, actually, it is a family to an extent. You can discuss really difficult things that maybe you can't discuss. It's a it's also a safe space, isn't it?

Andreas Spittler: 48:38

Mhmm. Definitely. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 48:40

And ah, yeah. So, yeah, CyTO, for Flow has to be the king, I think, or the king, queen, the leader of the cytometry.

Derek Davies: 48:49

The the the problem with Cyto of course is that it's quite expensive meeting. So this is one of the reasons why Yeah. Andreas, you set up your national society, and and we've done something similar in The UK over the years so that people who are lower down the food chain can actually get a chance to to go to meetings and hear the science and start networking. And that that's something, again, we've tried to do over the past thirty years with the local meetings like the London Flow Club. The RMS has a Flow Cytometry section.

Derek Davies: 49:16

We have Flow Cytometry UK that runs meetings every year, trying to get to every level of people who are in the business.

Peter O'Toole: 49:22

Come on. January meetings. Flow Cytometry Court meetings.

Derek Davies: 49:25

And the and and the facilities meetings, the the the in person ones and the virtual ones.

Peter O'Toole: 49:30

Perhaps you gotta get to that because especially being his deservations, I'll let Marilyn with one of the guests of this series talking about the virtual flow meeting, which actually ourselves brought them into that.

Derek Davies: 49:41

Yeah. And it's been really successful, and it's brought a lot of other people in, I think, that might not have been able to get to other meetings.

Peter O'Toole: 49:48

So now you reflect on all of that. What do you think when you do finally retire, what do you think you'll most miss? I'll start with Derek because I can see

Derek Davies: 50:01

it say something. The variety of people you get to meet, I think, you know, they're they're all different types of scientists. They all have different personalities. They all want to learn, which is good. But, you know, you have to learn to deal with that, deal with the different types of personalities, which you which, of course, you can do.

Derek Davies: 50:18

And the satisfaction at the end of it when something comes out of it. You know, they've learned to use flow cytometry or their experiments are now better than they were, and that's push push them up a rung.

Peter O'Toole: 50:28

Mhmm. Andreas?

Andreas Spittler: 50:30

Yeah. It's the same with me, and I have nothing to add at the end. It's it's absolutely the same with me. And what I'm really missing are, I think, are are the real friends, and I found a lot of friends at this at that community. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 50:44

I don't actually, just something for you to think about. Actually, we had Roy Edwards. I think you possibly know both know Roy Edwards from buyer status. He's he's now retired, and he actually popped up to York. What day are we on?

Peter O'Toole: 50:58

Yesterday. Oh. To say farewell, to say goodbye. And I think from it's not me retiring. It's a very odd feeling saying goodbye to someone thinking because they will not be able to go to the conferences anymore, the networks, I might never see Roy again, and he's been a big part of our career.

Peter O'Toole: 51:18

Have you thought that this is gonna be more different on your side? Because, you know, that's just one person. In your cases, it'll be goodbye to a network. If you're not going to those conferences anymore, you won't be seeing those people. You thought about that moment?

Peter O'Toole: 51:33

Sorry. This is this is you could be mortified now.

Derek Davies: 51:35

No. I'm putting that moment off. I mean, I don't think I don't think you would lose contact well, you're gonna lose contact with a lot of people, but there are some people, know, you have become close friends over the years. We're not not gonna lose touch with them just because I'm retired.

Peter O'Toole: 51:49

Yeah. It's a see.

Derek Davies: 51:51

Not talk about cytometry.

Peter O'Toole: 51:53

But it's the seeing, isn't it? I I I've I've got Roy's email address, so I will still be emailing and talking to Roy. But actually seeing him, the opportunity for that will be harder. Andreas? On a on

Andreas Spittler: 52:04

a private basis. This is on a private basis, which should be possible. And I have a friend at at a company, and he's you know him. And he's also retired. He retired, and he's he's working with the Flow.

Andreas Spittler: 52:18

He's working with with Beckman. He's working with and so on, and he's now he's retired. And we will meet on a a a private base after afterwards. And and I think they are also with with some other people. If I do not go to conferences, what I'm what I didn't decide up to now is when I'm really, really retired, then possibly I go to a conference when it's in Europe.

Andreas Spittler: 52:44

Yeah. I think I really tend it.

Derek Davies: 52:46

Saito give retirement rates.

Andreas Spittler: 52:49

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yep. Mhmm.

Andreas Spittler: 52:53

Yep.

Peter O'Toole: 52:54

So the next question, now you look back. I asked you what you wanted to be as a child. So you wanted to be a school teacher. You wanted to be an astronaut. If you could do any job in the world now just for a day or a week to get a feel for what it'd be like to be in that type of career that is not flow cytometry.

Peter O'Toole: 53:13

K? What sort of career or job would you like to go and sample for a day? Who's gonna go for it?

Andreas Spittler: 53:19

Mhmm. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 53:20

Or or a week, you know, just to get a feel for it.

Derek Davies: 53:23

Maybe working in a high class kitchen in a restaurant, a Michelin starred restaurant.

Peter O'Toole: 53:30

That's not an uncommon answer.

Derek Davies: 53:32

Is it not?

Peter O'Toole: 53:33

No.

Derek Davies: 53:34

Yeah. Think you got the same sort of pressure that we get when somebody turns up with a load of no controls and multiple samples. Wrong programs. Andreas.

Andreas Spittler: 53:46

This is the this is the crazy thing, Derek, because this is more or less the same with me because my my my daughter's working in in such a field. And we said, if I'm retired, you possibly may reopen an owner of a restaurant. This is correct. This is crazy. Yep.

Andreas Spittler: 54:04

Because I love booking.

Derek Davies: 54:06

We'll get a discount, Andreas, if we come up.

Andreas Spittler: 54:09

Mhmm. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 54:11

That it's really it's it's not an uncommon answer. People would like to skip the the feeling of that pressure, that stress and stuff. Yeah. Probably not Gordon Ramsey's kitchen, though.

Derek Davies: 54:20

Probably not, though.

Peter O'Toole: 54:22

Or would that add to the excitement? Because of the the the the the the high intensity.

Derek Davies: 54:26

An added pressure, isn't it?

Peter O'Toole: 54:28

Yeah. Have either of you watched the menu, the movie?

Derek Davies: 54:33

No. You asked me this a few years ago and said you must see it, and I've never never seen it.

Peter O'Toole: 54:38

See, You might decide not to work in a kitchen at that point. It's like our Flow Labs, all the team become completely dedicated to you and the cause. Maybe a bit too far. It is a very good film, though. We we're coming up close to the hour, so I'm now gonna ask.

Peter O'Toole: 54:54

If if you were to advise your children or the next cohort of scientists just starting their career, what advice would you give them? Go on. Andreas first.

Andreas Spittler: 55:09

Yeah. I would say this was, this was I would my boss said that, my my first boss said that I should look for a niche. And if you are if you have a niche, you are successful in this. And if you are following the rules and so on and you're and and and you are in your niche with with your heart, then you are successful. And this was exactly what I have done with sepsis immunology and also with flow cytometry at the end and always had on both.

Andreas Spittler: 55:42

I had my heart in there. And yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 55:46

Okay. I would

Andreas Spittler: 55:47

say this also to my student or I'm saying this to my students. Follow follow me if it's possible.

Peter O'Toole: 55:53

Follow a niche.

Derek Davies: 55:54

It's a good answer. Would say to everybody, you know, look at all opportunities. Not don't be too narrow in in your thinking. And possibly don't say no to anything. Well, not initially, anyway.

Derek Davies: 56:05

No. Don't say don't kick anything out of court till you considered it.

Peter O'Toole: 56:09

I think it's true. So I think this is another point. Sorry for Derek. Remembering Derek is a member of the med British Empire medalist for such an outstanding career. Derek, you don't have a PhD,

Derek Davies: 56:22

do you? No.

Peter O'Toole: 56:23

And yet had such a stellar career that would actually be really hard without a PhD perceived. And, Andreas, you're a medic, a proper medic. So and yet both. And I think when you both started your careers, I think it'd be safe to say that the careers you were in didn't exist, so you'd never have known about it. So you have followed you found a niche.

Peter O'Toole: 56:45

You've kept I doubt you've kept your options open and followed followed what you enjoyed possibly as well.

Derek Davies: 56:54

Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, that's about you have to enjoy what you do. It's a big part of your working life, so you have to enjoy it.

Andreas Spittler: 57:04

Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I would say it's more it's if I go over the years, I would say it's it's 95% fun daily work.

Andreas Spittler: 57:17

It's 95%. Are situations where they're not so funny, of course, but at the end, it's I think it's around 95%.

Peter O'Toole: 57:26

So, actually, one final question then. Is what has been the funniest moment in your career? What if you've got a really good short story that actually is actually quite quite funny, what's the most amusing moment in the lab or conference or career? I should have pre warned you on this one.

Derek Davies: 57:44

Good question, Pete.

Peter O'Toole: 57:45

I should have pre

Derek Davies: 57:46

warned you. From

Peter O'Toole: 57:48

lab disasters to just comical moments.

Derek Davies: 57:51

Yeah. I did what it's very trite, but I did once open up my sort chamber in the morning, and there were two cockroaches in there in the day when buildings weren't quite as well pest controlled as they are now.

Peter O'Toole: 58:07

Okay. That that that's done silence for a moment because that is horrific. Stereo sorting, eat your heart out when a cockroach gets

Derek Davies: 58:17

The plates weren't on. They were fine.

Peter O'Toole: 58:20

Fried critters. Andreas, what about yourself? Any really wonderful moments?

Andreas Spittler: 58:26

I'm thinking about it, but a really funny moment at the end there was a there was, at the end, an interesting a really, really interesting moment. It was it was maybe it was funny or it's not funny, but it was a conference in Brazil, and it was a a monological conference, and I was invited to give a talk about EVs. And from that time of of it was a company, Beckman Kulte. They invited me to give a talk then. And from that time on, people asked people are saying that I brought the EVs to Brazil, and this is this is this is really for me, it's really crazy.

Andreas Spittler: 59:03

And therefore because they expected this was this was a workshop. This was a workshop in the conference, and they expected around 20 people or so listening to to to to to the talk. And at the end, we were more than 100. And this was this was really amazing. And it's it's I don't know if it's funny, but yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 59:24

That's another really proud moment as well. And, actually, you reflect on the role companies have. Yeah. So companies have helped all of us, I think, travel different companies, different things. In your case then, Beckman Coulter

Andreas Spittler: 59:35

Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 59:36

To actually then have that big legacy influence in Brazil. You know? And, you know, that that's that's special. It's a very special This

Andreas Spittler: 59:45

is special. Yeah.

Peter O'Toole: 59:46

Anyway, we are up to the hour. So I should thank you both again, and thank you everyone for listening. Please do go back, watch all the other ones, and the next one's coming through. I hope you've enjoyed Flow Stars today. Please do watch it.

Peter O'Toole: 59:59

Andreas, Derek, you've been very special guests, and you've had a very special contribution to all of us and the network and the Cytometry community in general. Thank you very much.

Andreas Spittler: 01:00:09

Thank you, Will, for the invitation. Thank you a lot. Mhmm.