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Intro/Outro (00:00:00):
Welcome to Flow Stars candid conversations between Dr. Peter O'Toole and the big hitters of Flow Cytometry brought to you by Beckman Coulter at Bitesize Bio.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:00):
Hi, I'm Peter O'Toole from University of York. . And today on the Flow Stars, I'm joined by Rui Gardner from the Sloan Kettering Institute over in New York. Rui, how are you today?

Rui Gardner (00:00:11):
I'm doing very good. How are you?

Peter O'Toole (00:00:13):
I'm good. Uh, it's been a while since we met, I've gotta say, you're looking by the dashing with the new, the new, uh, the beard

Rui Gardner (00:00:19):
Thank you

Peter O'Toole (00:00:20):
Obviously you, you've even done your hair for this.

Rui Gardner (00:00:24):
Well, you know, I, I, I realized that people didn't really take me seriously. So, you know, I looked, I looked, they kept saying, ah, you look so young and that actually is, is, I mean, in a way it's good. But on the other hand, when you really want respect, um, it's not that good. So I decided to grow a beard and yeah, I've actually, uh, gain a lot of more respect from people now. So

Peter O'Toole (00:00:44):
Yeah. Now you look old.

Rui Gardner (00:00:45):
Exactly. Old and wise, you know, that, you know, you can trick people like that. I would encourage you to grow a beard.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:53):
What to make me look younger.

Rui Gardner (00:00:55):
Well, maybe.

Peter O'Toole (00:00:58):
Anyway. So how, so obviously you are not a native of New York. Where did, where did you start with your undergraduate?

Rui Gardner (00:01:08):
So my, my undergraduate, I, I, so it was all essentially done in Lisbon, um, in the faculty of sciences, uh, of the University of Lisbon, uh, and I studied biochemistry and it was the, it was a rough start because, you know, I dreamt, um, so my, my, my passion for science, um, started actually, I'm looking at the book, um, that I, that I read when I was 12 or 13 years old. And it was the life of, of Pasteur. And I was really, you know, I was really intrigued with the fact, wow, this guy had ideas. And as a child, he would try to, you know, uh, find, um, you know, tubes and, and, and do experiments. And I, I just thought that was, you know, in his own house. And then as he grew up, he built his lab in his house. Um, and I thought that was amazing. Like, I, I could do the same, I can start asking all these questions that I, that I don't have an answer for. And it really got me going with, with, uh, with science and, you know, by the time I was 18, I was convinced that, yeah, no, I, I really want to follow research. And, and I didn't know much about, you know, what would be the best degree for, for, for science and to become a scientist. And I really loved biochemistry, but I didn't really understand what biochemistry was at that time, because I thought biochemistry was more biology. What I know now is, is biology. So I, I actually think that I, I should have gone to biology rather than biochemistry, um, because biochemistry had all that part that I actually dislike, which is memorizing all the structures of the, of the molecules, et cetera. And that's not really what I wanted to do. I wanted to follow, you know, I wanted to study biology. I was really intrigued with, uh, you know, photosynthesis, the respiratory chain, all these kind of things, which is biochemistry. Right. But, but it was more, uh, maybe biochemical, you know, regulation, you know, how the, how the system reaches homeo status and things like that. Those, those for me were the intriguing questions. And so I started, uh, when was that 1991. That was when I started my, my degree. Um, and as I said, it was a bit rough start because I thought, you know, I had naive notion of science. I'm going to, you know, we're gonna sit down, our teachers are gonna give us problems. We're gonna, you know, brainstorm, um, trying to figure out these, these questions. I thought I was gonna work in the lab. Um, but no, that was so naive. It was basically, uh, I remember my first class, we were sitting down, you know, hoping for an introduction and to feel really excited. The teacher came, they, the teacher didn't even look at us. He just turned around and he started writing on the board and it was math. And it was, he just started writing on the board, didn't say anything. And it was the whole class we thought we were actually being, uh, uh, uh, how do you say, um, what's the words, uh, when you're in new and they something to you, uh,

Peter O'Toole (00:04:01):
Induction

Rui Gardner (00:04:02):
Type thing, right. Hazing, right. Something like that. Um, and I thought, I thought it was a joke, but it wasn't, it wasn't a joke. It was just like that teachers didn't care. Um, it wasn't about thinking, uh, it wasn't about, uh, you know, the thought process. It was all about just providing material at the end of the year. You, you do it, or at the end of the semester, you do an exam and it wasn't even a continuous evaluation. It was just do an exam, whatever, you know, grade you have on that exam is the grade you have for your, for your discipline. Right. And so it was very disappointing. My first year, I just dedicated myself to the, to the lab work, uh, really, or the, the lab work. And then, and then, you know, after a year, I thought, well, now I have two options either I continue. Uh, but now I have, you know, several disciplines that I have to work on and, and, and catch up, or I'll just say, okay, I, I missed this year. I actually did all the practicals. So now I only have to dedicate to the, to the theoretical part. And so I, I decided to stay a year behind and just, and just do the rest, uh, in a row. Uh, so it took me another five years. So total was about six years, uh, the fifth being, uh, actually working in a, in a, in the lab. Um, and I can tell you about that, you know, cuz I, I ended up not going you an actual wet lab. Uh, by the, by my fourth year, I was already also convinced that I really loved applying math to, to biology. It was just such a, an exciting way of formalizing biology because you think of biology so complex, it's so hard to predict, right. And here was a tool where you could write things down and you could make predictions. And I thought that was really, really exciting.

Peter O'Toole (00:05:46):
So you went from not liking things, being just written down and wants to be practically in the lab to then liking, just writing things down and predicting what you might have done in the lab.

Rui Gardner (00:05:57):
Right. So that's um, yeah, that's an interesting way of, of putting it, but what I didn't like was the, the, the memorizing part, right? Just, just memorizing for memorizing, you know what what's, what's the usefulness of it? Why am I, you know, memorizing this? You know, I can do that later. Or if I need this, you know, this material, oh, I, I, I know how to read. I can go do the books and, and, and learn whatever I want. So I thought that was a waste of time to force us to, to learn things. Then we have no idea, actually, we didn't even, so we didn't know when we were gonna apply it. And actually we didn't know to, to what to apply it to. Right. Especially math and, and, and the physics, you know, you had all those, all that material or chemistry. Also, you had all that material that you didn't know. When would you apply that? You know, and you apply that when you start getting to more advanced, um, biology and actually trying to answer questions. Right. But, but that's the thing. If you have, you know, if you're gonna start the, you know, genomics, right. Then you, you study everything around genomics, right. How the DNA works, how, how gene work, how they're expressed, et cetera. But if you're gonna be studying, I don't know, population dynamics, there's not much that you need to know about, you know, DNA, right. I mean, it's always helpful in generic terms, but not at that extent. Right. So we were learning a lot of material, which I, you know, maybe one day it's gonna be useful, but when you're young, you know, and, and you're at the prime of your life and your, you know, you're, you're asking you're how do you say you're, you're, you're asking questions that typically people, you know, as they grow older, they might not have, you know, the, the, the audacity to, to ask, right. When you're young, everything, you challenge everything, right? You challenge absolutely everything. And as you grow, you start becoming more and more, um, you know, you start having more and more prejudice about everything, right? So, so that's why it's very important, actually, you know, a small parenthesis here. I think that biology degrees or, or research, uh, oriented degree should essentially teach you how to think, to be critical, how to evaluate things in a very unbiased way. And I think that's, that's pretty much the thing that we've, we've lost well, or maybe never gained, um, in, in many degrees. Um, you know, and I think that should be the way to go. Um, rather than just learn so much material.

Peter O'Toole (00:08:19):
Do you not think that that learning, that material gave you the foundations to then go and ask the questions? Cause then you know what you can ask, you know, you know where to go and look for answers. But if we go back to our biochemistry textbooks, half of it is no longer relevant, right. Technology's moved on answers. The sciences has, has developed quite rapidly. I, I started in 91 as well. Right. I just sat down and just got on with it. Cause I just, I quite enjoyed the nightlife so

Rui Gardner (00:08:50):
Right.

Peter O'Toole (00:08:51):
And researched. And actually I chose biochemistry without knowing what biochemistry was properly. So it sounded like a good thing to do. Uh,

Rui Gardner (00:09:03):
Very similar to me. yeah.

Peter O'Toole (00:09:05):
But yeah, once you got the research lab and yeah, I remember especially the chemists, some of the, some of the chemists, not just back to you and there's a chalkboard, there goes, there's a thought its chalk back then. And it was just one line down, three lines across there's your carbon chain CS here. Oxygen's air nitrogens air. Next arrow goes to this arrow goes to this and it was just throughout, but I okay. So I thought that no, no context whatsoever. Right. Once the context came into place, I had that ammunition. Biochemistry's gotta be one of the best degrees out there because if you do buy anything with a cell, it's all driven by biochemistry. Right. And when biology doesn't turn out the way you expect it to it's because the biochemistry is D

Rui Gardner (00:09:55):
Right. I, I actually viewed biochemistry as you a more, a more exact science than biology. Right. So it was kind of bringing the math, you know, in the physics and the chemistry into, into biology. And actually my, so my mentor, the, the, the person that, that actually, um, started the degree in biochemistry, um, I believe 10 years before, um, I started, so it was probably, it was probably in 80, 81 that it started, um, there in Lisbon and, and this guy had been actually, um, Hans Krebs, PhD student. Um, and so he was, he was, you know, pretty, you know, driven, excited. He was all about, you know, brainstorming the thought process. He would used to go to the labs and, and make sure that people were doing things correctly. Right. He didn't care about the, you know, whether they had knowledge or not. It was more, um, you know, best practices. It was all about best practices and, and that really, you know, and, and that's, you know, coming to your point, I think those are actually the more important things that stuck with me. Um, I, you know, I agree with the fact that, yeah, you, you, you do build ammunition, you know, when you're reading all these things, but, but it's a very inefficient way of, of, of doing things. That's, that's my, um, way of thinking it. So the, this, this guy that started, um, actually have the same name as I, Rui, also, um, and he, for him, he used to say, biochemistry is maths, uh, chemistry and physics, you know, and as long as you have this, this, this great foundation, then you can learn anything in biology. Everything is just you details. And I, and I really, that, that sunk in because I, I, that's why I, I thought that was such a waste of time learning all this material, give me questions, or let me answer these questions. And I'll have to find that material I'll, I'll learn all the bases. Right. And, and so the, I think the subjects should be taught based on questions, right. That force people to go there, you know, maybe I'll learn, um, a different part of that foundation. Somebody else will learn a different part of that foundation, but it's, it's, it's part of finding the information that you need as a biologist, as a researcher later on, because later on, when you're asking questions in the lab, you're not gonna go, okay, so where has this been answered, right. Where are the books? You know, the, the thing is, if you lack those foundations, you'll go and find them, right. You'll go and, and, and

Peter O'Toole (00:12:26):
Search. I, I think you're right to a degree that, that there are those that will come out with the top degree, uh, that are very good at regurgitating information, reciting information. And there are those that are, maybe come out with a lesser degree, but actually are very good at applying and finding solutions. And actually for, from a, I guess from a academic research perspective, it's the people who can actually take what they know and apply it, find the information apply that that are most important. Right. And yeah, there, there is different. Uh, I've got you, obviously, for those who are listening, I think Rui might be sitting in your lounge, dining room, office.

Rui Gardner (00:13:07):
No, in my, in my living room,

Peter O'Toole (00:13:09):
In your living room, and you seem to have quite a bottle collection just behind you.

Rui Gardner (00:13:14):
Yes, I do.

Peter O'Toole (00:13:17):
And is that all alcoholic drinks?

Rui Gardner (00:13:20):
Yes. These are all alcoholic drinks. This is my, um, well, actually this, this is what I have for lunch or for dinner. Um, so I always have them with me, in my office here,

Peter O'Toole (00:13:30):
So that, that is quite a collection. And you send me, so I, I look, I, I, I hadn't noticed, and then I looked down and thought, oh my goodness, that there's a lot of spirits down there's not a, these alcoholic spirits. And actually you sent me some, oh, go on.

Rui Gardner (00:13:49):
here you go

Peter O'Toole (00:13:49):
That's quite impressive. And I love the way you put your children around your drinks.

Rui Gardner (00:13:54):
Exactly. I put all the important things together.

Peter O'Toole (00:13:57):
right. To start with the, uh, but you sent me some pictures as well. And, and now I understand why you sent me this picture, cuz this is a picture of you drinking directly outta a picture of sangria

Rui Gardner (00:14:11):
Right. Of sangria. So I, I, yeah, I, I forget exactly where this was, but all the pictures I sent, you were pictures either, you know, where I used to work or of conferences, where, where I went. So I believe this must have been either conference in Lisbon or maybe in Valencia, um, where, and, and, you know, this is just a typical example of, of how I used to drink in, in these conferences. You know, you would start with a glass as you see there, and then we would just start asking for pitchers. Right. And, and why not have a pitcher of sangria? I mean, you can have a pitcher of, of, of, of beer, right? So, so that's, that's the, that's the way I like to see myself in these conferences. Um, I mean, they're extremely important. You know, the science, the technology is extremely important, but the networking part for me is, is the most important of all. Um, this is one of the things I love of flow cytometry is, is how we are able to. So when I started in flow, I, I had come as a, you know, I was a scientist and I used to go to scientific conferences. And I remember, you know, again with this enthusiasm of, you know, I wanted to, there were people that were doing work very similar to mine. And I was the only one that I knew that was doing what I was doing. And so you would find somebody else asking the same questions and addressing them in a slightly different way. And that for me was, was so exciting. Jesus, there's somebody else. First it's a validation that maybe what I'm doing is, is, is also relevant, right. If somebody else is also working on that. So, and, and then, and then the fact that they also knew and had thought about it and I could discuss with them. So I remember reaching out to these people like in the poster session or something like that. And then, and then, you know, their first reaction and this happened a few times, their first reaction was uhoh, there's somebody that wants to, that's doing the same thing as I do. Right. So they're gonna take my work, publish it, and then I'm, I'm done. And, and I didn't think like that. I, I, and I, and I, I have to say, I'll, I'll just say it's not a naive, you know, I thought that maybe I was being too naive, but it's not, um, a lot of I've, I've, I've, I've had the, the fortunate, um, you know, I've been fortunate to, to actually attend several, uh, lectures of, of, um, noble prize winners. And for me, the, the, the thing that I hear that's common to all of these people is they always say the best thing. If you wanna reach, you know, this level, um, the best thing to do is share everything you do. Like don't keep it to yourself. And I thought that was very strange because what I'm learning as a, a young scientist is actually the opposite. I tried to share my research and they just close themselves, you know, worse, even worse. They might take my ideas and then use them. And I thought that was very strange. Um, and, and so there was a, a, a, you know, a lot of, um, how do I say, you know, the atmosphere wasn't, it was very competitive. And, and I remember the first conference that I went, which by the way, I don't know if you were there. It was in the German society meeting. I think it was 2007. Um, I think maybe we met in the, in Flow Cytometry UK, also maybe 2007 or 2008. Um, and I remember, you know, these conferences were local conferences, right. And the people there were just amazing. Everybody was relaxed. Um, there was no competition between, Hey, you're doing that. Then you're gonna steal that away from me and publish it. No, it was just a bunch of people. Well, who did I meet? Um, you know, Andy Riddel, Alexis already knew, but, um, you know, Ray Hicks, um, uh, you know, all these, these folks from the UK, again, I don't remember if you were there that one Flow Cytometry UK that I met you, but, you know, Rachel was probably there, Rachel Walker, you know, all these people. And it was the, a lot of fun we would go to bars. I think, I think Alfonso was also also there, um, Alfonso Blanco and, you know, it was just fun. It was just, people were, and I could ask all the questions, you know, I had just started maybe six months in flow. I had no idea what flow cytometry was when I started, uh, I actually, actually the person that was,

Peter O'Toole (00:18:30):
why, why did you choose post cytometry? You didn't know what it was when it started, so.

Rui Gardner (00:18:34):
right. I didn't choose flow cytometry. So yeah, I can, I can tell you how it, how it happened. So I was doing a post doc, computational biology. Um, I was actually in, um, theoretical immunology group. Um, and I was studying basically, I was trying to, um, um, you know, understand the interaction between T-cells APCs, um, you know, and so effector T-cells, regulatory T-cells and how the regulatory T-cells were able to regulate the effector T cells. Did they, you know, did they bind to the APCs and then the APC would, would now recognize the, the, you know, the effector to T-cell or was it an interaction between the regulatory T-cell and the effector T-cell at the same time on the APC? You know, so we were trying to figure out if, you know, by modeling this. So I, I, I was basically programming, um, and it was, it was graphical. I remember doing this with, with C uh, program and language, and, but it was, it was graphical, right? So you had the bowls where the cells, they were just floating randomly and they would touch, uh, each other. And I would change the, you know, the rules of the game. Right? So in one scenario, the, the, for instance, the regulatory T cells wouldn't do anything to the effector T cells. They would only activate the APCs, right. And the other in area, they would have to be both together with the APC to be able to have, um, an, uh, uh, you know, an, let's say an effect mechanism. And, and so I tried all these, these scenarios around, so that, that was my, my, my project. Um, and I was working on this. And the frustrating part is that I had already lost two years in another project that didn't work out. I actually, we, we, we, we ended up finding out that we were analyzing data. We were trying to reproduce data that, that, um, that was fake. So it wasn't, it wasn't true. It had been published, but, but we met the people that were working on this, and we finally, uh, understood that they had, um, you know, it was, they had broadly whether it was on purpose or not, uh, the data wasn't, wasn't true. So, you know, and I frustratingly, I had spent these two years, um, wasting my post-doc time. And I was realizing that also, you know, all the pressure, you know, the interaction between researchers, their PIs and, and the academic environment, the bad part of the academic environment, which we can talk about if you want. But, um, was, was very, was very obvious at that time. And I, and I thought, well, you know, I like academia. I like science. I wanna continue being involved in science, but this is not working. I don't wanna become a PI running around grants and money and stressing all the time that I don't have enough publications. And, and it's just so stressful where I just want to spend time thinking of problems and finding solutions to problems. Right. Again, it seems a bit naive, but, um, but then this guy approached me, um, in my former Institute, in, in Lisbon, in the Gulbenkian Institute. And he said, you know, um, our, you know, the, the person that's running the Flow Cytometry core, um, is actually leaving in three weeks. And, um, our director was asking me to make a list of people that I thought internally would be the best, um, people to, to take over. And he knew that I was starting to at, um, you know, alternative careers in, in science, you know, I was thinking of communication. Um, you know, oh, and then there's another factor here. I was a computational biologist. Um, although I loved my, my colleagues, we had, you know, um, amazing interactions and, and we used to get along extremely well, but we worked in a, in office, right. We were just on our computers and they were silence most of the day. You know, the only times that the silence was broken was when I started, you know, messing around and, you know, or, or saying jokes or, or stuff like that. Um, and, and they, they loved it. I know they loved it, but I was interrupting them. Right. So sometimes I had to to be careful and, and not exaggerate too much, but, but so, you know, one of the things I missed a lot was interacting with people, you know, I need to interact with people I've learned throughout my life that I'm, I'm an extrovert. I need interaction with people to gain energy or else I'll start dropping . And, and so, and, and that was missing. And I, I was realizing all these things at, at that time. And so, like I said, you know, we, the first person I thought of was you, because, you know, you, you're a computational biologist. You, you love technology. Um, uh, but you are also into biology. You know, there are a lot of computational biologists that come from physics or come from informatics, et cetera, that don't really understand the biology. Right. So I had the biology background. So I came actually a bit of the opposite. I came from biology, learned math, and then, um, jumped into, to, to this field, which by the way, wasn't called computational biology at the time it was mathematical biology, uh, bioinformatics, and just started. Um, so it was all different, you know, I know that people used these yeah. Um, loosely as if they all mean the same, but it's, it's not exactly the same. And, and so he told me that, well, you know, you have all this background, so we think, and you also like people. And I remember him describing this and I thought, but wait a minute, you're saying that there, there is a person that's sorting cells for other people. Like, what do you mean? I, you know, and I, I was, I remember clearly imagining, so, but isn't it. I remember I thinking of a Petri dish, I thought that people would, you know, with, uh, you know, how it is with, with invitro fertilization, where you put needle there. I thought it was a process like that. You know, you put one cell over there, some these cells, and that's how naive I thought about. So I didn't know anything about cell sorting or flow cytometry. I didn't know anything about core facilities. Cuz remember as a computation biologist, we don't really interact with core facilities. We have a computer that was it. We ran stuff on the computer. Um,

Peter O'Toole (00:24:28):
what year was this?

Rui Gardner (00:24:29):
What,

Peter O'Toole (00:24:30):
what year was this?

Rui Gardner (00:24:31):
What year? It was 2006, just probably summer of 2006. And I took over, I remember I started in November, 2006, so almost at the end of the year. Okay. Um, and, and so, you know, I, you Alexis because, you know, we knew each other, the, the institution was small, had I think a maximum of 250 people. So 30 labs. So we, we knew all, you know, each other. And of course I knew, um, Alexis, um, we used to hang out in the parties and, you know, just, just um, or outside at lunch. Um, I mean, you've, you've been at the Gulbenkian Institute, right. You've seen the outside area where we have lunch was always.

Peter O'Toole (00:25:10):
actually I haven't. No,

Rui Gardner (00:25:11):
You haven't. Oh, okay. I thought, I thought you had been there. They have to invite you. Um, yeah, I don't think I'll, I'll give a plug. Um, but, but you know, the, the thing was I, when, when he started describing a concept of a, of a core facility, so it wasn't, that's why I was saying I didn't choose flow cytometry. Um, I guess flu cytometry chose me. Um, but I, I, I, I chose the core facility, you know, aspect. It could have been any technology actually. You know, when I started learning flow cytometry, I had a huge help. Um, you know, I, when I think of this, I have to thank so many people, you know, for, I I'm so grateful for so many people throughout my life. You know, I, I can't say I'm here in the position that I am. Um, if you went for so, so many people, um, and it's, it's not like I'm just being nice and thankful. No. Um, a lot of, of people help me, um, in the, in the conversations that we had, the discussions that we had trying to help me focus and, and realize what it was important for me and I, this in particular, uh, I, I remember thinking of the concept of core facility, the fact that you are involved with, with, with science, right. You're helping the researchers collaboratively, um, trying to, uh, you know, figure out their problems, you know, technical problems, but also, you know, related to the science, you have to translate the science to the technology, right. And, and, and be able to, um, to solve their problems. And I, and I remember thinking, wow, I can become an expert in this, and this could be my thing. I could be really, um, helping these, these researchers and you get to interact with these people all the time. They come to you to, you know, they handle, so it was a bit for me, it was a bit of everything that I always wanted. It was the science, the interaction with people, the, the non-pressure of having to publish. I remember thinking I don't have to publish anymore. And a huge weight just left my, my shoulders. And this was in the conversation of maybe half an hour. Right. All of this was going through my mind.

Peter O'Toole (00:27:19):
So I, I, I, I, so for those listening that maybe doing that per stock or their PhDs at the moment, you say, it's, this weight lifted off and they're thinking, yeah, but so what are you doing? You know, where's your impact to science, right. But, but obviously there is a much, it is an impact. And I bet you're still being co-authored on lots of publications.

Rui Gardner (00:27:38):
Absolutely. Absolutely. That's the thing. And I, you know, I have to say, but this is, this is more of a detail, but I, I actually had many more collaborations when I was in, um, in, in Gulbenkian in Lisbon, um, just because, because of the culture, right. The, you know, people needed experts. Right. And, you know, we weren't swimming in money, obviously. And, and so a lot of these things had to be, you know, tinkered, tweeked. Um, you needed to, to be very involved in, in, in the research that people were doing to be able to solve these problems. And I remember, um, Flow cytometry was just, um, about immunology. We only served immunology, uh, which was maybe six, seven of the 30 groups that were there. The nice thing at the Gulbenkian Institute. It was very broad. Um, I mean, I had four main, um, topics, um, but you know, we had, we had people, uh, studying plant biology, developmental biology, um, you know, and of course using so even evolution, um, actually the people who were studying evolution were working with bacteria. Um, they were studying the mechanisms of evolution, et cetera. And they started using Flow cytometry. So my objective, like from the first weeks I decided my goal is gonna be to bring Flow cytometry to all of the institution, because I, I, the first thing that, that BIS told me when I first started was why can't we use Flow cytometry? Why is it only the immunology? Why do you guys give priority to all the immunologies et cetera? And I said, nah, but no, that at least my director told me that the objective of flow core is to serve everyone, you know, equally. And so that's what I'm gonna do. Five years later, everyone was using flow cytometry in the Institute and it was really exciting. And we had a lot of collaborations I had probably typically, so there were 30 labs and I had probably 20 ongoing collaborations, um, which with, with basically everyone. And it, it was, it was really an exciting time where I learned a lot, uh, in flow again, like I said, I, I learned a lot from, I mean, you know, Nu Nuno Munero um, I learned a lot from him initially. I was, you know, I had a Moflow and that was my machine.

Peter O'Toole (00:29:52):
There you go, actually, cause you mentioned earlier, tinkering, this was an instrument that needed

Rui Gardner (00:29:58):
A lot of tinkering. Yeah. And, and I, so I started with the Moflow and Alexis, he taught me everything he could in two weeks before he left and how to work with the Moflow. Um, you know, how to, you know, basically set it up and, and be able to sort, and of course in two weeks, especially when you know, nothing, um, you know, by the time he left, um, I mean he did a great job in two weeks, he did really teach me as much as you can in, in those two weeks. Um, and, and, you know, I don't, I mean, I don't know if you remember how he is, but he's, um, I don't know if he is [Inaudible] or not, but he's, he's an amazing guy, but, but when he's, when he gets excited, he's just, I mean, all over the place. And so I was trying to learn as much as possible taking notes, seeing what he was doing at the same time. And, and so in those two weeks, of course, when he left, um, you know, the first people that came with their samples, um, of course lasers are not working. I don't have signal mm. Fort scatter, uh, where's the, oh, maybe the Fort scatter is not aligned. Maybe, you know, there was so many things that could be wrong. And of course I remember being sweating, but keeping my calm and then just telling the, the researcher look, of course you understand that I'm new here, but I'm gonna make this work. So give, gimme some time I will go and call Nou, Nuno would come in. I remember Nou would just start taking apart the, the, the, the, you know, the whole, the whole assembly. And I would go, oh my God, okay. We're not gonna sort today for sure. Um, but it was really exciting. It was just, I learned so much of, you know, the instrument, the technology lasers, Nuno taught me to align lasers in the way, you know, I can, I can almost without a, a, you know, a microscope, um, I can align pretty much any, you know, from scratch. I remember, I remember with, um, with the facs scan of facs scale were changing lasers, you know, the, the, the blue laser and just mounting it. And

Peter O'Toole (00:31:55):
So I have to ask, do you miss the Moflow? Cause it was the best teaching tool. It was, it sounds actually like this was a nice nightmare. And actually, I don't think the Moflow was far from a nightmare. Yes. It needed a bit of a light once you had it singing. Once I know personally, I felt at one, I felt the Moflow was an extension of me when I was in that lab. Absolutely. It was part of you and you could feel it, you could hear it, you could sense it. You knew exactly it didn't take trouble shooting. Cause you just, you were part of it. And it was so,

Rui Gardner (00:32:31):
Um, and, and, and it would start working better when you were in the room. Right. That's how, that's the relationship you, you established with, with a, with a, a machine like the Moflow, right? It's um, it's almost like, you know, I'm exaggerating, but the thing is, yeah, you, you can, you can actually, as you're working with that instrument day by day, you're actually changing things in a way that somebody else that comes in will need some time to change it back to their, to their way of doing things. I think, I think the Moflow, I miss it a lot. I, I think it's, um, more of a RnD type of technology, um, where you could, you know, for me, I did a lot of things with, like I said, um, you know, we, so we were the first to, to sort the, the, the sperm cell and the vegetative nuclei from, from Poland. Um, this was the stuff, uh, Alexis started doing this in collaboration with, with one of the labs, one of the plant biology labs. And, you know, they were trying to run this sugar solution as sheath. And it was a mess. I mean, you know, imagine all the aerosols. And then as we were sorting, you know, our hands on the table were, you know, the gloves were getting, you know, sticky as a full of sugar. So we had to clean it very well afterwards, but it was nice because as I went, you know, as I started understanding the machine more and more, um, we started getting rid of all these, you know, all of these different things that we would do, like the sheet. And we ended up actually being very successful, doing it without, with just BBS, without even having to change the sheet. Um, and it ended up cuz I remember we were gonna publish the method because we had all these, um, modifications. But as, as I got better at it, I realized that no, we actually don't need any of these modifications. We were just sorted just normally. So there was no real really method to, to, to publish. Um, but it was really exciting. The fact that we could change anything, we were sorting bacteria, yeast, uh, even, even starfish, um, zebra fish, um, any mammal dog, horse, um, mouse, human, uh, yeah. Human without a hood. Those were the days. Yeah. I,

Peter O'Toole (00:34:44):
I have the next question. So you, you took up the Moflow, you started running a call and this was back in Portugal. You're now over in New York. uh, Alexis left obviously. So you took over where did Alexis

Rui Gardner (00:34:57):
Go first? So Alexis went to Heidelberg to, to work with Andy Reddell at the EMBL. And then, uh, and then after Andy left, he took over and then, you know, they have this, this, uh, rotation, I dunno if it's three years, yes. Nine years or, and then, and then he left to Australia, uh, where he is now, um, sat down in Melbourne. Right. Um, so, so yeah, I mean, and this is another thing of the, of the, you know, it's, it's, it's not a, that big field, right? It, I, I think it's big enough to, you can always meet new people, but it's small enough that the people you meet, um, you know, are still your, your friends, you know, they're your colleagues, but they're friends also. And I, and I, that's one of the things I really like, um, from, you know, from this field again, you know, I, I, I was saying that, you know, Flow cytometry chose me when I started learning Flow cytometry, especially with the Moflow, um, with the micro microscopist beside me. And I would go and see their microscopes and they would, you know, explain to, to me all the things they were doing. I remember thinking that, you know, this is a much cooler technology than, you know, the Moflow is exciting, but that it's moving towards, you know, pressing buttons. And, but this, you know, this requires not only understanding the, the technology or let, let me put it this way without understanding the technology. You're not gonna help pretty much anybody. Right. But with, with flow, I know a lot of people that really don't understand the technology, they, you know, they read the users, guides, press these buttons, we run the sample for you and that's it. Right? So in that respect, if I would choose a technology, I probably wouldn't have chosen flow cytometry, but I didn't know all this, these social aspect, right. The, the flow cytometry community is, you know, I have the feeling that it's, maybe it's not as spread as microscopy, right. Because microscopy is a general term. There are different fields in microscopy, right. Of completely different.

Peter O'Toole (00:36:49):
I sit in both camps and actually they're both really good communities, really good networks. And the, the microscopy community, it's very similar. The, the light microscopy communis actually really quite tight knit, especially from the core side. Yeah. We all know each other really well. Just like with the flow cytometry, I would argue that microscopists dance slightly better at conferences than the flow cytometrists, but it's touch and go. It depends on how much someone's had to drink by that point

Rui Gardner (00:37:17):
Exactly that I should start going to those [inaudible]

Peter O'Toole (00:37:21):
Thinking of which see you sent me this picture as well, which is freakish. This is, it is explain.

Rui Gardner (00:37:30):
Yes. So this was, um, it happened, I think it, it was in Leipzig. Um, if I'm not mistaken

Peter O'Toole (00:37:36):
ISAC in Leipzig, that was a love, the vague you the cabin downstairs and they

Rui Gardner (00:37:40):
All. Yeah, exactly. And, and I had, I happened to have this, um, you know, Microsoft phone and it had an app that, you know, that you could swap faces and, and I just thought it was hilarious. I had done this already in my, you know, back in my, my lab and, and I thought, Hey, I'm gonna start swapping faces of all these people. And I mean, it's just hilarious when you see, you know, you take the picture and then you wait a little bit as it's, you know, swapping the face and then Sally, it appears, and there the faces swap. And it was just so funny. And so this, this in case, you know, people can't recognize the two people here, um, actually on the right with Rachel Walker's face and Rachel is on the left with my face. And so this is what we were doing, swapping faces. Um, I, uh, you know, from actually, I, I, I don't think I sent you this one with Paul Robinson and his postdoc that I swap the faces, there's one with Rachel and Howard Shapiro, which, which, um, you know, I hold dear, um, you know, especially, you know, given the, the recent, um, you know, pass away of, of Howard, um, that, you know, was, um, an absolutely remarkable, amazing human being, right. Not only I think he was for sure a Salvan, um, he was just brilliant, um, a memory that, that, that I haven't, you know, I haven't met many people or actually, I don't know if I've met people that have, you know, that capacity, that memory that he had, and he could discuss anything with him, but, but more than that, he was a, an amazing human being he would, since he could remember everyone. So I can, I can maybe tell you a little story about, about Howard. Um, so of course, everyone knows Howard. I knew Howard, I would see him in the meetings. Um, you know, people were always a bit dismissal with him because, you know, he came out sometimes, you know, very strange or he is very, he was very, sometimes very abrupt on, on, you know, um, because he was very driven, very excited. He wanted to know, okay, you are working on this. Why are you working on this? Have you noticed, you know, and people would, would be really frightened that, you know, a person like, you know, this stature would, would, would come up to them. And I remember in one conference, I forget at which one it was, but very early on in, in my career. Um, and he, and he calls me out. He says, Rui and I, and I thought what? He knows my name, holy. You know, I go, okay. Um, and, and I had my technician at the time, Telma, who's now in, in, you know, running, she's run several cores in, in Switzerland. And she, she was with me and I come, you know, up to Howard with her. Uh, and I said, you know, come, come, come with me. Let's, let's, let's meet Howard. And, and I, you know, the first thing I, I say, hi, Howard, um, oh, so this is, this is Telma. And he goes, yes, I know who Telma is. And I thought, whoa, like, how does he know these things? So you must have gone to our website. He must have gone, you know, done his homework or research. And apparently he needs to talk to me or maybe he just knows everyone he's been in everyone's website. And, um, which was pretty impressive. And I remember he started talking, um, you know, uh, about malaria. Um, I forget now the, you know, how he figured out, but we were all right, exactly. Because we were collaborating with a lab in Lisbon. So not in my Institute, but, um, in the, in the Institute of molecular medicine, in, in Lisbon, um, where Paul Hutchinson used to be, uh, by the way, um, used to work. And, and there was a researcher there that worked with malaria and had contacted Howard. And so Howard knew that we had a Moflow and so that we could work together. And so it was really that, that was Howard. He, he knew everything. And, and at the time I only knew him as you know, uh, you know, as the, the person that wrote the Bible of flow cytometry. But, but as we collaborated, uh, I ended up going to Boston, working with him with Trisha Rogers. Um, at the time she was at Harvard. Now she's at the Broad. And, and I remember we, we, we were collaborating and, and we went to his house for dinner and, and it was an amazing experience, you know, just being with Howard is an amazing experience, but, but having the, you know, the pleasure to go there to his, you know, to his house, of course, he started showing everything like the songs that he played, his albums, and he actually, he, he, oh, I forget, there's this, this do it two guys. I don't know, from the fifties, most likely you don't, or no, I forget now their name, but, but they, they were like comedians, but they sang. So they sang funny songs. And actually one of the guys, um, was on a wheelchair. Um, and you know, all of this was black and white. I, I had no idea who they were and he showed me and, and they had a song was, which was called Madera Madera wine, you know, from, from, from the Madera islands, right. The Portuguese islands, he knew all about father, the Portuguese father. He knew a lot about Portuguese history. Um, and I'm sure he knew about any other country's history. Um, but it, it was just such, you know, it was so amazing to see him so excited to show me, right. You know, why would he even bother, you know, showing, showing me these things. But he, he was like a kid. He was like a kid, everything he did. He was like, he had the enthusiasm of a kid and his humor was really. You could be offended if you wanted, um, by his humor. But if you weren't offended, his humor was brilliant.

Peter O'Toole (00:43:08):
I, I think I, I, I don't, some people have been offended by his humor, but I don't, I think that's because they didn't know him. And if they knew him and where it was coming from, they'd understand, actually, this is on himself. Not anything else saying for a lot of people. Now you mentioned the group and he was at start, you sent me this picture as well. yes. To be fair. Looks like you are modeling to be part of a boy band, to be honest.

Rui Gardner (00:43:32):
Exactly. So we were, so we were looking, uh, um, to take a picture. So we were just the four of us. Um, and actually the person taking a picture was, was just, um, you know, kind of a, not an intern, but she was just there for a few months. Um, and so we asked her to take a picture of us cause we wanted a picture of the lab and we said, okay, let's take pictures as if we were a boy band.

Peter O'Toole (00:43:56):
So it was meant to look like, but well, you said

Rui Gardner (00:43:58):
Quite well. It was exactly. Um, you know, the funny thing is that, you know, this was the, actually the first picture we took and, and I looked at my, you know, my friend Tiago that's on the, on the left. Right, right. Beside me in the, in the yellow, uh, jumper. And, and, and I looked at the picture and I said, no, you look, you don't look like a, you know, we're supposed to be serious and tough and no, you don't look tough at all. You know, you need to, you, you're almost smiling, so we need to redo the pictures. And then, and then I don't know, I decided to boycot all the pictures after that. so I was just making, uh, stupid faces, although that one is pretty stupid already um, but that one was on purpose. The other ones were just messing around with the pictures.

Peter O'Toole (00:44:43):
Um, and you say messing about, you also sent me this picture. Yeah. Which is of you and Alfonso obviously pulling the bird above my head,

Rui Gardner (00:44:52):
Then there's a guy there. So yeah, this is, this is, so this was one of the, the, the nice things of being there in that Institute was, so this is five minutes from, from where I worked. Um, and so we would run courses, and this is a, a flowsite course, by the way, my, the first flowsite course that I was involved in and actually hosted it and Alfonso and Tim Bushnell were the, were the instructors. And we just, you know, it was just a lot of fun. We, we were in the class and then we would go for lunch, uh, next to the beach. And this is just a picture, you know, of, of us, actually, this is in October, by the way. And this is how Portugal it as in October, you know, short sleeves,

Peter O'Toole (00:45:34):
Rub it in. Yeah.

Rui Gardner (00:45:36):
Right. Still some people in the beach, as you can see, not many, but you know, it's October. Right.

Peter O'Toole (00:45:40):
But, but, but the classroom's just the same, isn't it, it doesn't matter what the weather is outside, inside.

Rui Gardner (00:45:46):
It doesn't matter actually. So this, this picture is, um, is [inaudible] this, this is also flowsite course. So, um, that, that first course that we ran, uh, I believe I'm gonna say 2011, um, that first, that was in the beach. Um, and then, and then I started, so, you know, with Alfonso and Tim, um, I started lecturing for flowsite and also exsite. So that was more or less at the time where exsite started. And I remember I would, so I was running a lab, I hired one and then two, uh, technicians. And every, at least every month I would, I would go to and, and give one of these courses, some in some place in, in Europe. Um, and I remember Tim saying, uh, you know, we'll, we'll give you, um, you know, a stipend, so we'll reward you financially for this. And I kept telling him, no, no, just, just, just pay the, the expenses, pay me the trip, because just the fact that I'm going to other labs is just, for me, is such a, a, um, you know, a rich opportunity to, to see how people do things, um, how they, you know, know how they work, how they run their labs, et cetera, their, their core facilities. And so for me, it was an opportunity actually to learn. And at the same time I could teach and teaching is also a learning process. You know, it, it, it also teaches you a lot. And

Peter O'Toole (00:47:07):
This is Denis

Rui Gardner (00:47:08):
And that is Denis, Denis Polancec. Yes. And we had a lot of fun. I went twice to, to Zagreb actually, I was gonna continue going there every year. Um, but, but then I moved to the, to the US, which was a bit, because we also a lot of fun there in, in, in Zagreb.

Peter O'Toole (00:47:24):
I, I wanted to ask, we only got about 15 minutes left and I wanted to ask, that's a big move going to the, the US from Portugal. Uh, how did you find with family at the time? Yes. Yes. So I, I presume they were supportive. There must have been a lot of trepidation about moving.

Rui Gardner (00:47:43):
Yeah. I mean, find, so the, the thing is when I, when I was doing my PhD, um, the idea of my PhD, so this was back in 1998 when I started my PhD. Um, so I finished my degree in 97. I was six months in a, uh, you know, working in a, in a, in a lab. And then I started my PhD right, right after. And the idea was to stay six months in the US learning all these tools, these computational biology tools. And then I would come, I would go back to Portugal and, and, and work in the lab. So both in the lab, but also in the, both in the wet lab and in the dry lab, um, you know, building a model, testing that model, going back and refining the model and, and to, to, to do these things back and forth, which, which I thought was the way to do, you know, the best way to do science, uh, was having that structure that, you know, as I said, formalizing things, uh, mathematically. So you can, you know, predict test and then go back and refine your, your, your model. And, and, and so I went to the us, I went to the University of Michigan. I fell in love with not only with, with the, with the, with the culture, the, the, you know, the lifestyle, but also with the, I mean, I was in the University of Michigan. So that's where they announced, um, where, oh, I forget his name. Um, you know, whether they were the, uh, doing the, you know, genome sequencing that, uh, Craig Venter, I believe. Yeah. Yep. And that's when he announced it was there in a, in a, in a, in a lecture that they weren't gonna spend 10 years or whatever it was. He said that, um, I remember it was like the end of the year. And he said, next May, or next April we'll have the human genome sequence and everybody was blown away. You know, so, you know, you're in the middle of all these things happening. And I thought, I'm gonna go back to Portugal. Why, you know, like, this is, this is it. This is where I wanna be. And so at the time, so I got married five days before I left to the us because, you know, I, I thought I, I would, was already predicting. And my wife kept telling this was the less, the least romantic way of, of, of, um, asking to marry, uh, someone, because I remember we were thinking I'm gonna to the US, but what if I want to stay? What if we wanna stay there? Um, if we're not married, it's gonna be very difficult for you to move. Right. Um, so if, if I try to adjust to, by a visafor my girlfriend, and, and so one day I, I just turned to her and said, Hey, I'm gonna go down to the, you know, whatever you call it, the, the office. Right. And, and I'll, you know, and I'll, I'll get the paperwork for us to get married. And that was my marriage proposal.

Peter O'Toole (00:50:32):
And how many children do you have?

Rui Gardner (00:50:33):
And now Two

Peter O'Toole (00:50:34):
God, you're so lucky that she didn't just throw you out at that point.

Rui Gardner (00:50:38):
Exactly.

Peter O'Toole (00:50:40):
Unbelievably lucky.

Rui Gardner (00:50:42):
So, so then, you know, I married five days before I left and, you know, I left to the US six months later. I said, no, no, we need to stay here. We need to. So she flew over and she spent like a week or two, she thought it was actually at the time she was a bit hesitant, but then we had the opportunity for her to actually, um, do a degree here in the US. And so she ended up coming. We spent another three and a half years. It's been, I think, a couple of four years in Michigan. And it was, I mean, it was one of the best times in my life. We were, you know, we were young, we were just enjoying life and science was, was great. Um, and then, you know, unfortunately since I didn't finish my PhD, by the time my fellowship ended, I didn't have an, a visa anymore. So I had to dis make that decision of, you know, whether I throw away my PhD, um, and restart again after four years, um, or I go back to Portugal, finish it and try to come back to the, to the US. And, and that's what we did, uh, except it took us 13 years to come back to the US, but it was always in the back of our minds, both my, my wife and I, um, and actually we, we had our son, uh, he was eight months, uh, old when we moved back to Portugal. So we already had the son very difficult times. Uh, we didn't have money, we didn't have a job. Um, I didn't have a lab to, to stay again. I was helped by, you know, by incredible people that, that took me in, in their lab. Um, they just allowed me to, to work, you know, here's a computer to, you know, finish your PhD. Maybe you can work for us, you know, in some projects. And that's how I actually started my postdoc afterwards. Um, you know, and things just, just got better for both of us and, you know, um, and then by the time then I moved to flow cytometry. Um, you know, I, I managed to, to gain a reputation in such a way that, um, one day I started looking out for, for jobs in the US and, and I had this opportunity to come and work at, at Sloan Kettering and, and I took it, um, without hesitation

Peter O'Toole (00:52:40):
Love the way you say you gave yourself a reputation. That can be a good or a bad thing. Uh, so question quick, quick fire. Some quick fire questions. Hmm. Portugal or US?

Rui Gardner (00:52:52):
US

Peter O'Toole (00:52:53):
Michigan or New York.

Rui Gardner (00:52:55):
New York. Oh,

Peter O'Toole (00:52:57):
You gone safe there, Mac or PC

Rui Gardner (00:52:59):
Now Mac

Peter O'Toole (00:53:01):
Now Mac.

Rui Gardner (00:53:03):
Okay. I I've changed throughout, you know, I've been a Mac guy. I changed the PC guy. Now I Mac guy I'm actually agnostic.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:12):
No beer or wine,

Rui Gardner (00:53:15):
wine,

Peter O'Toole (00:53:16):
red or wine.

Rui Gardner (00:53:19):
Red, That's no doubt.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:22):
American or Portuguese wine

Rui Gardner (00:53:26):
Portuguese. Ah, I love Portuguese red wine.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:30):
My favorite at the moment is a Portuguese red. I have which one about 36 in the garage stocked up along with other bits, but okay, good batch. You gotta enjoy it. Exactly. Coffee or tea.

Rui Gardner (00:53:47):
Tea.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:47):
Do you drink coffee?

Rui Gardner (00:53:49):
I drink coffee. I mostly drink coffee, but I enjoy more tea. Okay.

Peter O'Toole (00:53:53):
Just, just imagining what you like on a lot of coffee, chocolate or cheese,

Rui Gardner (00:53:57):
Cheese, cheese, Ooh. No doubt.

Peter O'Toole (00:54:00):
Okay. Early bird or night owl

Rui Gardner (00:54:03):
Early birds. Well, actually both that's yeah, that's a balance I've been trying to, to get, but yeah, both actually. Okay.

Peter O'Toole (00:54:14):
What's your pet hate? What do you not like

Rui Gardner (00:54:16):
As a what

Peter O'Toole (00:54:18):
Pet? No, no, it's in a pet hate. So something, uh, something that annoys you.

Rui Gardner (00:54:23):
Oh, something that annoys me. Oh, I, um,

Peter O'Toole (00:54:25):
Don't say podcasts,

Rui Gardner (00:54:28):
Right? oh, I don't know. I get it's a difficult, yeah, I haven't thought about that. You know, I tend to try to be very nonjudgmental, so I really enjoy pretty much everything, but of course there are things that annoy me. Let me see. I don't know. I, I, I hate when people waste my time. I, I, I really don't like that. They don't respect that you, you know, that you have a, a life I's

Peter O'Toole (00:54:53):
Say, and we should quickly move on. Uh, what, what's one of your passions in life outside of work,

Rui Gardner (00:55:00):
Outside of work? Oh, you know, I, I would say people, people are my passion. I just love like, you know, I think about traveling and things like that, but what I really like of traveling is meeting different people. And, and so even locally, I, I just, you know, I can go to a bar as long as I'm with the, the, the, the right company for me. That's, you know, we can be outside, not even in a bar anywhere, as long as I have good company. That's what I love. Best people.

Peter O'Toole (00:55:29):
Do you have any bad habits?

Rui Gardner (00:55:31):
Oh, yes, I do. like, um, staying up late and waking up too early. that's what I'm

Peter O'Toole (00:55:39):
You must have more bad habits than that.

Rui Gardner (00:55:40):
Oh, um, yeah. I, I I'm sure. I can't think of any at the moment.

Peter O'Toole (00:55:45):
It's always dodgy when you won't confess to it. Uh,

Rui Gardner (00:55:48):
It is.

Peter O'Toole (00:55:51):
What about sports or hobbies? What do you do in your

Rui Gardner (00:55:54):
Yes, I, I play soccer or actually, I should say football. I'm I'm already very Americanized here. Hi, soccer's good. I play, I play football actually. I'm just recovering from, uh, um, this, this pinky finger here. Yeah. I last Sunday. Um, so I was playing as a goalie, so I play a lot as a goalie because I he's playing the part. Right. And I, so actually, no, it, it, it, it came out and it went so out of the socket and, and towards the inside. So I thought I had broken it dislocated, but no, it was just dislocated. So now it's feeling really, but yeah, that's what I enjoy. I play every week. Uh, I used to play two, three times. Uh, now I'm playing maybe once a week or I try to,

Peter O'Toole (00:56:35):
So if you are a soccer fan Ronaldo or, and Fernandez

Rui Gardner (00:56:38):
Ronaldo, Ronaldo

Peter O'Toole (00:56:40):
Whose the better player today,

Rui Gardner (00:56:41):
Today. Yeah. That's questionable. But, but, you know, Ronaldo still has the experience, right. So

Peter O'Toole (00:56:50):
I'm a Man U fan, so I love both so that that's not such a big problem. Is it TV or book?

(00:56:59):
What

(00:57:00):
TV or book

Rui Gardner (00:57:01):
O book book? Absolutely. I I'm only starting to watch TV now. Um,

Peter O'Toole (00:57:07):
What sorts of book fact or fiction?

Rui Gardner (00:57:08):
Um, I actually, I, I, I, I, I tried both, you know, cuz I usually tend to go to fact, you know, I like a lot of, um, I don't know, historical books or books about politics, uh, science, um, but then, you know, but the, and it gets too serious and I need to relax a little bit. So I, I always, um, you know, I start, you know, I have a reading sometimes I'm reading both, you know, at the same time or I'll just alternate between, um, a fact book and, and, and then fiction cuz I, I really enjoy fiction also any type of fiction.

Peter O'Toole (00:57:41):
What's your favorite movie?

Rui Gardner (00:57:42):
Ooh, that's a good question. My favorite movie, I think it would be, I mean, there are a lot of favorite movies. It's, it's always difficult for me to say, but I would say probably Once Upon a Time in America, it's probably up there, um, for the movie, but also the music

Peter O'Toole (00:58:03):
We have got five minutes and I I've got a few questions I'm gonna have to cut down and just think about which question best to ask. Uh, I think we've heard about your inspirations. uh, I think Alexis obviously played a very big part in that very early on. Uh, and your right does go off on tangents quite frequently. Uh, would you say taking that job? No, I would you say your undergraduate, the startup was probably the most challenging time of your career so far

Rui Gardner (00:58:36):
The undergraduate? No, I would. I wouldn't say, I mean, it was very challenging. Right. And, and you know, I was mostly disappointed, so it was more challenging in that sense that a, I have to finish it and get over with cuz I'm not learning anything. So like the last two years were, were really tough because I just wanted to move on and start working in the lab. Um, but no, I would say the, the, the most challenging time of my career was when I went back to Portugal because like I said, um, we didn't have any money, so it was more, both a personal, but also I didn't have a lab to, to be in, I didn't have support from my, from my supervisors. And so a lot of my PhD, I did it by myself. I had huge help from informally, from a colleague of mine that supervised me, uh, Fernando. Um, he was amazing. He, he took all this time to, to help me, you know, finish my, my PhD. So he was really, uh, an important person in, in, in my life at the time, but it was really challenging because, you know, we didn't have any perspectives, you know, things were looking really, really dim at the time. And, and we just said, well, you know, we can't go backwards because there's no way, you know, um, to go backwards. So we just have to move forward. And so it was, it was a time it took maybe three, four years where we were underwater. And I remember once in a while feeling like I could breathe a little bit and then go underwater again and just wait and things will get better. And, and they did. And, and now I look back and, and those were amazing times, you know, times that I learned a lot about life and about people, about, you know, about our profession and all these things. And so it really taught me a lot, but, but I think those, those were the more challenging, even more than when I came here to the, to New York to run this huge facility, uh, even more than that. And I think that helped a lot, you know, that experience helped a lot,

Peter O'Toole (01:00:29):
One final, not so serious question. If you could have any job in the world, what job, what would you do?

Rui Gardner (01:00:40):
O shoot, I think I've thought about that, but I don't know. I really enjoy what I do, you know, and I've been thinking a lot about, you know, is, is running a core facility. What I do actually, I've had the opportunity to become, you know, director of of course. And I don't, I don't even, that's not something I like, you know? Um, so I like people a lot managing people. That's a bit different things. I like people when I don't have to manage them. Yeah. Right. It's a completely,

Peter O'Toole (01:01:09):
I took that step, but I kept my cool

Rui Gardner (01:01:11):
right. so, you know, I really like, I really like what I do. Um, you know, I like solving problems, right. So any job where I can, so I'm, I'm not, you know, fixed in science and, and Flow Cytometry. Um, at, at the moment I could change to something completely different. Um, and it would be, you know, exciting to learn something completely different. Um, and I think, you know, that's one of my favorite characteristics is that, you know, I know that I'll be, hopefully if I'm 90 years old, I'll still be excited to change, to move, to, you know, to leave my comfort zone, you know, um, leaving your comfort zone is one of the most difficult things, but it's also one of the most, um, gratifying things. Um, when, you know, when you start becoming successful, it's, it's, it's really nice. So

Peter O'Toole (01:02:06):
Finally, finally, on a far less serious note, you said earlier when you were a computer scientist, uh, not cool that back then, but computer scientist, that actually, everything was quite quiet until you started talking and telling jokes and stuff. So what is your favorite joke? That's clean.

Rui Gardner (01:02:25):
That's good. I don't know. yeah, that's a, yeah, no, I've never, I've never, so I'm, I love, I love bad jokes. I can say that. So maybe I don't have a joke in particular, that would be my favorite, but definitely that jokes, which of course my children, um, you know, always, um, scoff, you know, like when I, when I can tell them these jokes, um, and actually most people will scoff when

Peter O'Toole (01:02:55):
Give us an joke example, go

Rui Gardner (01:02:57):
On. Uh, I don't know, know there was, there was one just, just yesterday. Uh, yeah, like the top of my head, if you put me in a spot, I don't know. That's why I'm actually not a comedian. Cause if I'm, I, if I'm put in a spot, I, I forget everything, but you know, if we're having an informal conversation, you know, the jokes will start coming out, uh,

Peter O'Toole (01:03:17):
Informal,

Rui Gardner (01:03:17):
Hey, it was inform. But you know, like when you're put in the spot, I don't know. Um, there, there, you know, especially, you know, jokes like, um, so, you know, Larson, you know, the, the, the, the comic strip, right? Uh, it's this kind, this kind of humor I love, I can say I've been influenced by a lot of great, uh, comedians, like, um, Benny Hill . Oh, a lot of people would question whether that would be a comedian. Um, but I, I used to watch Benny Hills so much when I was young so much, and it was now, now I look at it and I go,

Peter O'Toole (01:03:55):
I asked for your favorite joke, not a confession,

Rui Gardner (01:03:57):
Right? No, it's it's um, yeah. And, and I don't know, trying to think of other, you know, comedians that, that inspired me, but, but yeah, it's, it's difficult to, you know, to think of a joke.

Peter O'Toole (01:04:12):
So, so one final, final, final

Rui Gardner (01:04:16):
Question. I know, I'll think of it when, when we, when we turn off the, the zoom call

Peter O'Toole (01:04:21):
We'll just keep recording and we can put it as an outtake at the end of it. How's that. So who would you like to see next on Flow Stars?

Rui Gardner (01:04:31):
Oh, that's a, that's a, that's a good, that's a good point. Who would I like to see? Um, well, I would definitely like to, to see Howard, I think Howard would, would've been a, an amazing, uh, person. I don't know. There are a lot of people I would think of. Um, you know, I don't know, from the top of my head, uh, you know, people here in the US, For instance, um, you know, uh, Joanne Lanigan, I think she's, she's had a, an amazing, oh, one thing that I would, one person I would love to, to, to see is, um, Trisha Rogers. I think, I think people should know. Um, she, she runs the core at the Broad, uh, Institute. Um, she's pretty known here in the US. I don't know how, you know, how well known she is in, in Europe and other places. But, um, I think she, you know, as a person and where she is and knowing her background, how she got there, she's an extremely inspiring person. And I think everyone should, should know her. How do you say her path? Yeah, actually, yes, I think, I think, yeah, I think if I would think of somebody to interview, um, it would be her. Definitely.

Peter O'Toole (01:05:39):
Thank you. Rui, that will go on the list. thank you very much for joining me today. Uh, everyone who's been watching or listening. Thank you for joining us. Uh, you've heard about Alfonso, uh, Tim Bushnell. You've heard Derek Davies drop in into this. You'll see a lot of these people actually on the other podcast in the past, and you've just heard of who I've got to go and invite next. Uh, Rui, thank you very much for joining us today.

Rui Gardner (01:06:00):
Thank you. It a pleasure, Peter. It was a pleasure. Thank you very much.